sorry about repetition...

yes 26C should be good,28C is a bit high for these guys(not lethal or anything..)
your pump is beneath....i suggest you check your heater's settings and maybe try confirm temperature with different thermometer?
?

platty252 wrote:
I am surprised your post was removed from the PFK site. After all if i remember correctly there first pod cast (or what ever you want to call it) was about organic aqua.
I agree it is very good and would recommend it to anyone starting a tank. Even if it was only to get them past the cycle stage.

Trimax have you tried it on very soft very acidic water? I mean a really low ph. If so what did you think?

Yeah funny enough it was the same dude who banned me as who did the podcast! I have tried organic on tanks from a PH of 6.5 up to 8.5. I havent noticed any difference between Organics effectiveness on Soft or Hard water, Both work equally well. I found temperature to have a greater effect on Organic aqua, But as long as you remember to increase airflow to warmer tanks then its fine.

It's interesting that this topic has raised its head again, especially so close to next month's Show...

That people find this works is beyond dispute - enough people have posted to that effect, Ben Eadir was so impressed he repeated his endorsement! And at least two of those (whose Fishkeeping ability and knowledge is beyond dispute - ie not 'Search Engine Experts' have endorsed it in their own ways. My own doubt about it comes when we are told that it works, but not how it works! It certainly defies all the established scientifically-proved knowledge regarding Cycling of water, and yes, that is a well known and long established fact. Everyone can read about the whole concept, start to finish. All we are told about this wonder stuff is that it defies science???

If this was anything like as good as it is claimed to be the manufacturers of it would be millionaires by now, with agencies selling it in all parts of the world (at least the parts where fish are kept). Or else some huge concern would have bought out the company (if it was considered a threat) and be marketing it under their banner - that's the American Way, buy off the opposition - Opposition, I don't think so!

John

paulbohs wrote:
Good discussion. Any marine tank keepers using OA? I only have spoken to 1 guy using OA for marines on a new fish shipment and he lost alot of fish. pretty sure you cant blame OA but i'm not jumping into this blind with liverock in the tank worth 1000 euro alone never mind the fish stocks.

Usually when someone losses fish in a system newly converted to OA its because they did not do a 90 - 100% water change first, and they probably neglected to clean all filter media, remove the plastic tubes from the wet dry filter(If any) and other such shortcuts.

I understand the reluctance to try a new thing on an expensive system. This is natural. If its any comfort I have helped many a customer with no fishkeeping experience whatsoever , set up a marine organic system. I Used to do it in 3 stages. The customer would buy and set up the tank,equipment and salt first. Day 2 they would buy and add the Rock and sand, day 3 would be fish and OA. Coral I usually suggested be added a week or so later so they could get a proper introduction to keeping it that they would remember. It is possible to do this quicker but When it comes to beginners I didnt want to give them too much info in one day as they would be likely to make a mistake. So over 3 visits to me they would get bitsize chunks of information so as to minimize the chances of error.and I have never had a complaint with marine OA customers. The only complaints I ever had was with freshwater systems,People not leaving a the top open at nigh, turning off the airpump at night and once when someone set up a tank and put the airpump IN the tank!

Hi John,

The only reason this thread has started up again is because after Dimitri suggested OA to me last week I came home and started searching for validation from actual users here on ITFS. Dimitri struck me as a decent guy and I always trust my instict but I also have a healthy amount of sceptisism (the paranoid survive and all that) so I wanted some 3rd party confirmation that this stuff does what it says on the tin as it is in contrast with the traditional biological process I first learned about when I strted the tank. I have no other agenda here whatsoever, no connection to OA or the re-sellers or even to Fintastic Aquatics other than as a happy customer. The fact that the thread re-started close to the upcoming show is co-incidence but I'm guessing your own (healthy) scpetisism will continue to doubt that!!

When it comes to 'proving' how it works I agree it would be great if we could all understand that but I can understand why the owners can't divulge that informaiton. By definition the product is organic so doesn't contain anything they can patent and therefore protect from being copied. They have found a mixture of naturally occuring ingredients and a particular blend of these ingredients which works. If they were to divulge the mix or much more informaiton about it than they already have the product would be reverse engineered by one of the big companies who could then wipe the floor with OA due to the fact they have bigger marketing budgets, better established branding, better established global distribution channels etc. OA would be remembered as the people who discovered it but thats all.

I'm not at all scientifically qualified but I do have some knowledge of Intelectual Property and I'm involved day to day in the sale of going concern businesses. If OA had been able to patent their product then I have no doubt one of the big international brands would have bought them out or tried to. The fact that they don't have any intellectual property (other than the OA brand name) makes a sale extremly difficult becuase in order to consumate a deal the formula would have to be revealed to the potential buyer and independently tested to prove it works BEFORE the sale was completed as that is primarily what the buyer would be paying for. OA would (rightly) be very nervous about this as there are many examples of one competitor making what appears to be a genuine offer to buy another and for the deal to be agreed in principle subject to due diligence but after due diligence (the process of validating the financial, legal and intelectual property of the company being acquired) the business which made the original offer pulls out at which point they have a complete and intimate knowledge of the target companies customers, payroll, pricing, intellectual property etc. Of course this process is 'protected' by confidentaility agreements but in reality there is little OA could do to prevent the unscrupulus 'buyer' from launching a similar product down the road and claiming to have independently researched and developed it, particularly as what they OA would be trying to protect isn't actually 'protected' intellectual property.

On the flip side the danger for one of the big boys if they were to buy OA is that they pay €xm for it but becuase they aren't getting a protected patented product they run the risk of BenEadir Inc launching an identical product the day after the sale is completed called SuperAqua and then how valuable is their investment in OA? Heads would roll.

Think of Coca Cola. Is their formula or the mix of ingredients fully dosclosed? or even KFC? All we know is we like the products and that the ingredients are safe to consume so we're happy to drink Coke and eat Chicken to our hearts content. The value of those businesses is in their brand, economies of scale, management capability and wide market penetration. OA appears to be just a small business with limited funding and (based on the picture I saw and the tone of their website) owners who are passionate about the product, not necessarily out to become a market dominant brand.

That's my 2C worth anyway.

I will attempt to explain how it works here! Basically in an Organic system there are 3 seperate treatments that when added to water work together to filtrate the water, and maintain good fish health.

In a normal traditional system there are many species of bacteria which occur in a healthy filter, put simply each of these species works on Nitrifying Ammonia. Some species work on Ammonia directly, others on Nitrite, the Nitrified Ammonium. All the bacterial species in question need oxygen to work and a media to live on, this is usually a sponge or ceramic object. This media needs to have water constantly passed through it in order to function. The end result either way is Nitrate, which leaves the tank several ways, The main way in modern fishkeeping is through dilution of the water with fresh water. Plants also use Nitrates as fertiliser. Nitrates will also evaporate slowly through gas exchange on the surface of the water provided the water tension is broken by a current.

The last method is the key to Organic aquas funcionality.

I'm sure marine keepers are familure with the idea behind a Protein Skimmer and how it works.
It is comparable to how OA works.

In an Organic system there exists a different group of bacteria, which lives in the water itself. It is free floating and feeds off the waste directly, converting it to Nitrate. One of the additives in Organic aqua slightly alters the consistancy of the water, causing the water to interact with oxygen particles differently. In a marine protein skimmer salts in the water also changes the consistancy and do something similar. Nitrates bond to the oxygen particles in a marine protein skimmer, and are forced up and out of the water, into the foam which over flows into a collection box along with other waste particles. In an organic system, fresh or salt, Nitrates produced by this free bacteria are also forced up and out by Oxygen particles in greater amounts then in a normal system thanks to the OA general treatment which alters the consistancy as I said above. So via gas exchange at the surface of the water,Nitrates are lost at a much higher rate. this is why an airstone and ventilation are important in organic tanks.
The filter, be it internal or not merely acts to catch larger waste particles , ie it acts as a mechanical filter. It must be cleaned regularly because If Bacteria starts to build up in a traditional sense on the filter media then it will take food away from the OA and the OA Bacteria will die.

It is true that the bottles of bacteria people buy, ie stress zyme, do not actually contain any nitrafying bacteria, but rather a relative of the required groups which acts as a base for the correct species to evolve. As it is impossible to transport nitrafying bacteria without a constan flow of O2 and Ammoniums to keep it alive. OA is not that different in the science of things to traditional methods, it is merely more focused on the easiest aspect of nitrate removal, evaporation through gaseous exchange, And it contains natural chemicals which free the bacteria from their spongey prison.

Science has still not completely identified all the Nitrafying species which occur naturally as in truth there are thousands.

Unfortunatly the species names of the OA bacteria is not yet discovered either as far as I know. Which in truth is not much different to What science has ID'd in traditional filters either.
The Chinese did not know the species names of the bacteria which filtered there tanks 100's of years ago, nor did they have mechanicle pumps, but they did know that it works. If OA's owners were to coin a name for their bacteria, would it make you feel better? Is the fact that there is bacteria at work in an OA system not enough.

All I can say to those posts is WOW, and - although Ben and yourself have nothing to do with the product - great timing lads.

This Forum does not exist for sellers to be able to use it as a free advertisement medium, however!

That neither of you have anything to do with the product I must accept but it has been quite surreptitiously promoted in the past so you'll understand my scepticism.

John

No worries John. Sceptisim is a good thing!!

I don't know if you've ever hear of the busness networking group called BNI but it is based on giving referrals to businesses you have had a good experience with yourself and/or you know and trust. I'm a big fan of referrals hance my enthusism for OA and Fintastc Aquatics.

I also refer ITFS to people BTW.

Regards,

Ben

Thanks for that Trimax. There defenitely was not a 90% water change or even a 10% water change. I will pick up a packet to trial on my quaranteen tank and read the instructions first as i probably would have just dumped it in

JohnH wrote:
All I can say to those posts is WOW, and - although Ben and yourself have nothing to do with the product - great timing lads.

This Forum does not exist for sellers to be able to use it as a free advertisement medium, however!

That neither of you have anything to do with the product I must accept but it has been quite surreptitiously promoted in the past so you'll understand my scepticism.

John

Timing has nothing to do with it, I have recently returned to the forum and seen this thread revived the other day and because I have an awful lot of experience using oa I thought I would share my knowledge for the benefit of fellow hobbiests. That you have taken a skeptical approach is healthy but please don't attempt to tarnish my honest contribution to an open discussion with irrational ideas of conspiracy, I suppose all my other non related posts of pics of my tank and attempts to help other fishkeepers were all just part of my sinister plan too . My names Jim Kelly, I'm 24 I play guitar for a living and thats my main passion, I am not a planted co-conspirator sent to braiwash you by the evil OA company sorry to burst your grandiose bubble. I will say no more on the subject seems it's degraded to paranoid conspiracy, I have better things to do then prove my integrity to people.

Just one more thing, I personally do not currently use OA as my tank is 400l and I can't afford the treatments. Just wanted to share my experience.