Breeding pair of angel fish

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13 Aug 2017 16:39 #1 by robert
robert created the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Hi all , i am looking for a proven breeding pair of angel fish . Dublin area . Thanks Robert

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14 Aug 2017 10:36 #2 by JohnH
JohnH replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish

robert wrote: Hi all , i am looking for a proven breeding pair of angel fish . Dublin area . Thanks Robert


Robert,
I think you might be approaching this from the wrong direction.
I would suggest you go out and buy four or possibly even six young fish and let them grow to maturity in your big tank.
That way you'll have the pleasure (plus some heartbreak, no doubt) of watching them grow up, form pairs - from which you can choose the best one (pair) and move on the others.
This has always been the route I have taken down the years (although I have to confess I did ask Craig Fishmad if he would sell me his pair - but he was holding on to them) and has always (well, mostly always) been an enjoyable one.
Big problem, to my mind, is the indifferent quality of Angels we see in Ireland. Derek used to keep and sell very good quality Angels, but - unfortunately - no longer does so.

Just keep your eyes open for good quality juveniles and when you see some, snap them up - pronto!
Look for straight non-extended fins and good deportment too (but I'm sure you know what to look for, having been a fishkeeper for a long time).
And - if you do - why not try keeping a 'blog' to let everyone know how they (and you) are progressing.

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


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14 Aug 2017 15:28 #3 by robert
robert replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Hi John , thanks for your reply , presently have what i was told was a breeding pair of very nice platium angels , have them now for a few months in a110 litre tank . During this time they have spawned 5 times and on each occasion the eggs turn white within 24hrs and get eaten within 48 hrs . The eggs arnt being fertilised and being no expect in this field reckon that i have two females . I was thinking of introducing another fish into the tank , but seeing the other two are good buddies reckon war would break out, and i dont wont anyone getting hurt . Dont think the tank is big enough to put 6 or 8 small angels in . So looking to buy a pair of proven breeding angels was just i thought a way around it . What do you think ?

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14 Aug 2017 16:40 #4 by JohnH
JohnH replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Sorry, I thought you had those in their own dedicated tank - obviously I misunderstood a previous post.

It sounds very much as though the person from whom you bought the Angels was maybe not altogether honest with you, either that, or they just told you they were a 'pair' (two of anything is a 'pair') but if they were sold to you as a confirmed 'breeding' pair it is fair to expect that they would have bred and created live offspring.

If you get the opportunity to, next time they lay eggs try to see which of the pair is laying eggs (obviously if both do it's safe to assume both are females). You might just have a young infertile male - I have a pair of Black Angels here which have spawned every week or so since April with - all but once - no fry being produced. Time before last fry hatched, but were all eagerly eaten by the other inhabitants of the tank. Next spawn (with now only the pair of Angels in there) all eggs turned white and fungussed by the second day. But I knew these were a valid pair, having produced fry previously. Today they are guarding a batch of 'wrigglers' so I have high hopes this time around.

I think, by telling you this tale I am trying to stress upon you that things can sometimes 'come good' eventually and that you might well still get fry from your pair (if a pair they be).

I'm not certain what your plans for them would be - should you buy a further pair as Angels can become very assertive (to say the least) and not take kindly to any new company. My (very limited) experiences with Platinum Angels tell me they tend to be pretty aggressive so your anticipation that they may not accept even one new adult could well be spot on.

For what it's worth I, personally, would move out the existing pair then go down the 'juvenile' route suggested earlier.

Maybe others can add thoughts and suggestions for Robert?

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


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14 Aug 2017 20:19 #5 by Dihanio
Dihanio replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Robert, why not ask who you bought them from, did they get fry from them?

Also, could be the fact that they are not in a tank of their own?

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14 Aug 2017 21:08 - 14 Aug 2017 21:09 #6 by robert
robert replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Hi , john and Dihanio , a little update , the angels are in their own 110 litre tank with just a couple of corys as clean up crew . I did manage to contact the guy igot them from through facebook , he assures me he had fry from them , he seems a desent sort of guy and at this stage am inclined to believe him , he asked me what my ph was i told him using declorinated tap water ph 6. 2 . Waiting for him to come back to me , I am just wondering at this stage am i doing something wrong , after all i have never tried this before . What do you guys reckon ph should be ?
Last Edit: 14 Aug 2017 21:09 by robert. Reason: added sentance

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14 Aug 2017 21:48 - 14 Aug 2017 21:49 #7 by JohnH
JohnH replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
I (again very personally) am of the belief that - as long as it isn't 'pure alkaline' the pH of the water isn't too crucial for domesticated strains of Angels. It has been an awfully long time in their evolution since their antecedents were in a South American river!
Your 6.2 is well on the acid side of neutral - certainly much more so than my well water is and should be considered as fine.
Far more important (again, perhaps only in my mind) for them is absolute cleanliness. Eggs and fry are particularly susceptible to any form of water pollution - no matter how little it may be.

It might be worth doing a small proportion of a water change daily - on top of the obvious benefit this can often trigger a spawning - so a double benefit.

Let us know which route you decide to go down.

Good luck,

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


ITFS member.



It's a long way to Tipperary.
Last Edit: 14 Aug 2017 21:49 by JohnH. Reason: spelling

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14 Aug 2017 22:40 #8 by fishmad1234
fishmad1234 replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Robert it could take up to 10 gos for the angels to figure everything out.


Mine were bought as a pair I think patience is the key especially with breeding angels.

Something kind of strange happened when my angels bred the first time a day before I was going to Chicago in April they laid eggs on the breeding cone so even tho I was excited to go to Chicago I was a little bit unhappy I wouldn't get to watch over the eggs.


So when they finished laying the eggs I took the make and female out went to Chicago for 6 days came home jet lagged checked the tank eggs gone all white light back off 12 hour coma followed.

Had planned to clean out the tank turned the light on and to my amazement I had loads of angel fish fry in the tank.

So it could happen when you least expect it.

Check out my post on breeding Peruvian angel fish in the breeding section I detailed it from start to finish.


Regards
Craig

at the end of the day it becomes nite

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15 Aug 2017 08:26 #9 by Bill
Bill replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
It's been a very long time since I kept angels - 60s to 70s - but I remember how fickle they could be then, hopefully less so now-a-days.
I remember seeing people's so-called breeding pairs which turned out to be two females and often in those situations you would find more eggs than was possible to get from one female. Both would lay eggs, in some cases an entire breeding tank wall could be covered with eggs and both fish dutifully caring for them until they fungused. I suppose with two females, one could play the female part and the other the male part, but anytime I've seen this with angels or other fish usually with two females you would get double eggs and, obviously, with two males you get none.
I would agree with John, if you want to try a different pair then it's much better to get a young group of 4 to 6 and grow them on and let them choose their own partners. Buying a "proven pair" can bring it's own problems. The catching of the fish and transporting an established pair can put them off breeding for an awful long time. I suspect that eventually they will settle down.
Bill

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15 Aug 2017 09:29 #10 by robert
robert replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Hi lads , really grateful for your posts . I think i am going hang on a while with the angels i have they are really beautiful fish , so plan of action is 10% water changes every day and will try feeding frozen foods as well . I have in fact removed the coneand replaced it with a piece of state . I seem to get a spawning about every two weeks and what i would consider a normal amount of eggs which makes me think that only one fish is spawning . Just one other point i am running two interal power sponge filter with power heads on them , would this be too much current for them , i am easily change these to air driven if you think it might help

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15 Aug 2017 09:39 #11 by JohnH
JohnH replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
(Again) very personally I would reduce the flow rate, Angels seem rather unsuited to high-flow conditions. Are your powerheads not the types on which there is a flow-restrictor?
Otherwise maybe the aerator route would be the best alternative.

Other observations, please, for Robert.

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


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15 Aug 2017 12:29 #12 by robert
robert replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Ok i will dosomething to slow the flow down tonight when i do the water change .

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15 Aug 2017 14:11 #13 by Bill
Bill replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
I'm with John, I would drop the water flow well down. Add a couple of bits of bog wood, a few beech or oak leaves and get some of that good bacteria in the tank and some subdued lighting. I would think that a feed or two per week of Whiteworm would make a good spawning trigger. Also like John, that's personal preference and how I will do it when I get myself some of them again.

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15 Aug 2017 18:41 #14 by robert
robert replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Hi Bill and John , i am going to follow your guide lines , you do realise that its big trouble for you both if it does work , ha ha . Will get a bit of time at the weekend to make the sudjested changes , so its angel fry by monday then ! . Thats one of the things i love about this hobby its a constant learning circle , and what might work for one person might not work for the next and thats what this forum is all about . Good to see a few new members and a bit more activity recently

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15 Aug 2017 18:46 #15 by fishmad1234
fishmad1234 replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Best of luck Robert


Regards
Craig

at the end of the day it becomes nite

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22 Aug 2017 08:28 #16 by robert
robert replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Well i did as sudjested , reduced water flow ,fed frozen foods , daily water change just 10% and reduced the lighting ,couldnt find any romantic music to play or get any rose petals to scatter on the water , but presto i have eggs this morning this time they laid on the piece of slate i put in and not on the breeding cone . So now we wait and see . Will keep you updated .

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22 Aug 2017 10:11 #17 by Bill
Bill replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
fingers crossed :)

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22 Aug 2017 21:34 #18 by robert
robert replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Just checkedthe tank eggs are gone , so i reckoni am looking for a proven pair of angel fish after the hols

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22 Aug 2017 23:54 #19 by ger310
ger310 replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish

robert wrote: Just checkedthe tank eggs are gone , so i reckoni am looking for a proven pair of angel fish after the hols


Hold your horses there Robert.......give these guys time as there is no reason to believe they are not a proven pair..........patience is the key

I had a pair of Angels that were breeding regularly for about a year and a half (after a very patient wait I must add)......there offspring were magnificent and all was rosy as I was able to offload them easily such were there beauty..........I then decided for a change and to give someone else the joy of these guys and sold them on to a member on here........one year later and that member hadn't had one spawn never mind having the eggs eating so there is no real logic to all this.............no matter what you do it's your fish ultimately that will decide whether the eggs progress to fry and it mainly happens when your least expecting it,which is the real buzz :)

Ger

What do you call a three legged Donkey?

A Wonkey....duh ha :)

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23 Aug 2017 07:04 #20 by Bill
Bill replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
I totally agree with Ger, Robert, patience is the key.
Other things to check meantime are; water parameters. Is the pH OK, the hardness, EC etc. One thing is for sure, they won't spawn on demand, they will spawn and raise fry when they are ready. You could buy another pair but still go through this until they are ready, or you could buy a young group and let them pair, but you'll have a while to wait until they are ready to pair, let alone spawn.
Bill

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23 Aug 2017 07:05 #21 by Bill
Bill replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Maybe this thread should shift as it's become more of an advice thread than a wanted :)

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23 Aug 2017 09:16 - 23 Aug 2017 09:37 #22 by JohnH
JohnH replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish

Bill wrote: Maybe this thread should shift as it's become more of an advice thread than a wanted :)


I had been thinking along those lines myself, but decided to leave it where it is as Robert has now decided to resume his quest to buy a pair after his holiday.

But...I will just add this before a new pair is bought,
Angels, especially the Platinum and other 'recent' adaptations (and yes, to a degree I would even add Blacks - even though the first of those I bought were in 1960) have, for generations after generations, been artificially hatched (ie the eggs removed and hatched separately) and it's my belief (and that of many more eminent in this subject than me) that down the generations the 'imprint' of parental care has just become lost. This is far less likely to happen with tank bred (and tank parentally-reared) Angels since that gene is still strong in the more 'natural' strains.
As an example I will quote this to Robert - my own pair successfully raised their last batch of eggs and they hatched over the weekend. after 48 hours of dutifully minding the fry, catching the ones which strayed from their allotted position, they decided enough was enough and ate the lot!

Maybe, Robert, you should 'go with the flow' next time they lay eggs and remove them and see will they hatch artificially. I rather suspect the person who sold you the pair may have used this method to get fry and then was able to clain they were a 'viable' pair.
OK, you won't have the pleasure of watching the whole parental activity, but at least you'll have fry and young to pass on.

Sorry, more 'advice' in a 'Wanted' thread...

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


ITFS member.



It's a long way to Tipperary.
Last Edit: 23 Aug 2017 09:37 by JohnH. Reason: Addition.

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23 Aug 2017 16:10 #23 by robert
robert replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Thanks for your support lads , so we play the waiting game, didnt really want to remove the eggs as its really the breeding and adults raising the fry that i was interested in . Well i will give them a good talking to tonight and wait a while , they are two beautiful angels

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24 Aug 2017 10:16 #24 by Bill
Bill replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Some excellent points there, John. The 60s through to the 80s at least they usually removed eggs for rearing so the parents could get down to spawning again, quicker, and thus be able to sell more juvies later. A good business practice but not very conducive to natural breeding and raising. The fish never really got the chance to work with their own instincts.
I think if I remember they added methylene blue to the water to stop them getting fungussed, but maybe it was something else, my memory isn't so good these days :)
Bill.

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01 Sep 2017 19:24 #25 by robert
robert replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Just an update , well i had spawn this morning and this afternoon its gone , one thing i did notice was that the eggs seemed much smaller this time . My take on this is i have two females and on this occassion the other female spawned hence the difference in the size of the eggs . Now the question is what to do next ? Seeing the angels have had a 110 litre tank to them selves since March would it be safe to move them to the 350 litre community without any problems, they are two beautiful fish so i dont want to get rid of them . Next question what could i put in the 110 litre tank to breed that would be interesting to watch , was thinking maybe some type of mouthbrooder , although i have no expierence of cichlids . You thoughts would be grafefully accepted . Thanks Robert

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01 Sep 2017 23:29 #26 by JohnH
JohnH replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
For what it's worth Robert I think your Angels will settle into the big tank, although they will probably establish themselves as the 'top dogs'.

As to new breeding fish - have you considered buying a pair of Discus? - More expensive I know, but the thing is this, domesticated Discus are nowadays much easier to keep than were the ones of yesteryear. Plus - because they are bred almost exclusively and eggs and young are left under the care of the parents the parental 'imprint' is so much more prevalent than with (as previously discussed) Angels.

There is plenty of details regarding Discus and their breeding if you do a search for 'Discus' on the Forum.

Many of the Rift Valley Cichlids are mouthbrooders, but really need to be kept in a Cichlid 'community' with plenty of fish in to help disperse the aggressiveness somewhat, but I'll stand aside and let others with more interest (and knowldge) of thse to better advise you.

Just a few thoughts.

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


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It's a long way to Tipperary.

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08 Sep 2017 20:33 #27 by robert
robert replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Well just noticed my angels have spawned again tonight great , except am going on hols on sunday for 2 weeks and knowing my luck these will be fertile . Was going to do a big water change and clean before going , the parents are being fed on an autofeeder while i am away but have no way of feeding fry if the eggs are fertile and hatch on monday , am away for 11 days . Anyone any ideas ?

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08 Sep 2017 20:36 #28 by robert
robert replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Just watching the angels ,both fish are faning the eggs , seem to be giving them a lot of attendsion , certainly more than i have seen before

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08 Sep 2017 21:31 #29 by JohnH
JohnH replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
I shouldn't be too concerned Robert.
For starters I have watched Angel fry 'browsing' off their parents in much the same way as Discus fry do, although I don't think they do this as avidly as do the latter.
As I think you mentioned you now have sponge filters which are air driven. The fry will quite happily pack at those too. You'll be surprised at how much sustenance they can get from doing this.

I remember a few years back Stephane (Miami) had a very similar scenario and he came home to Angel fry which he had had to leave (how do they know you're going on holiday???).

Also Craig Fishmad went away to foreign parts and came back to find some of the eggs he had thought were all fungussed had, in fact, hatched and there were still fry alive on his return.
Maybe Craig will elaborate more fully anon but in the meantime just go off and enjoy yourself.

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


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It's a long way to Tipperary.

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09 Sep 2017 09:25 #30 by fishmad1234
fishmad1234 replied the topic: Breeding pair of angel fish
Yeah Robert I came back from holidays the eggs had been laid 2 or 3 days before I went and more and more were becoming fungusy I had resigned to the fact the eggs were gone well were partly gone and by the time I got back they would definitely be gone so I took the parents out and back into the main tank.


Was home about a day planned to strip the breeding tank put sand in it and start another project turned the light on and to my surprise over 100 free swimming angel fish fry I was over the moon.

Start feeding on fry food as I don't have a brine shrimp hatchery In the end I didn't have the time to take care of them when I went back onto shift.

They still lay eggs regularly in the main tank but to many tetras nibble at the eggs and it's a losing battle for the angels.


Forget about the angel fish go on holiday enjoy your self and you might come home to a surprise.


Regards
Craig

at the end of the day it becomes nite

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