Mixing Species and Care

A few bit's of advice.
Never mix Wild Discus with domestic!! By that I mean True wilds, those that have been directly imported from the source. The reason being that if you take say a domestic cat and introduce a ferrel or wild cat you will have problems, same as wild & domestic horses. they each have there owm built in imune system. A wild Discus is more resistent to Disease than a Domestic discus. they have to be, to be able to survive the conditions they live in. They will be hardier. this may not be true in other fish species but in Discus it is a fact, stick with Wild or Domestic but don't mix the two. In the wild they have to cope with high & low temperatures from well below the 80's to as high as 100 at times. the ph can vary from 7 to as low as 3 in some places. but in the Aquarium set up we should try to keep all things constant and stable, I settle for A Ph of 6.5 TDS of 160 temp at 80. The only time I need to change it is for breeding, then the TDS comes down to 33 about 1 degree hardness and the Kh is 1. that is so the eggs will hatch. After that the Hardness is raised to 200 =5 over the first 6 weeks so as to give the young the minerals they need for bone developement.
So settle for the readings you can maintain consistenly and stick with it,

Good post RusselB) , I suppose wild stock of any species have not evoled to swim in waters where the is ammonia or nitrite, but I agree in the wild the temp swing much higher and lower than we think 18C-34C, with very very low exposture of a big mix of infections, as oposed in an enclosed system zero or eperdemic, by the way I see Valarie edit your post you will have to stop swearing:laugh:

I have never sworn in any post. can you point me to it

russell wrote:

I have never sworn in any post. can you point me to it

I cant see any swearing but your post did get edited by Valarie;)

What I should have said was, it is preferable not to mix wild & domestic stock, unless you have a specific reason, such as trying to improve the strain. It can be a precise and exacting process, not best undertaken by the inexperienced.

Fr. Jack,

The reason why I edited the post was for the title. Russell had used the \"&\" character and for some reason it comes up funny on the forum.
The only detail I changed on the post was \"&\" to \"and\".

Regards

That is a bold statement to make Russell. Wild Discus are
easier to keep and more hardy than wilds. Most Discus keepers
will wait years before trying their hand at keepings wilds.
Unlike captive bred Discus they need soft acidic water. They
usually have parasites(depending were you bought them) and they
have to be dewormed.
Some will never feed for you unless you are feeding live food.

I am not going against your experience or knowledge but I think
that post is a dangerous. I can see some poor fool ging out
tomorrow with a pocket full of money with the intend of buying
wild discus.

Finally on wild animals.
Captive/tame animals are more healthy/stronger and less afraid
of humans. You would be more than likely to be attacked by
a Lion in the Zoo than one in the wild if you came into contact
with one. Don`t think I am going on at you but it is you post
I have problems with.If you ever get those Tefe to breed I stil
have first dibs on them.
All the best Anthony.

Hi Anthony.

I guesse it's horses for courses. I have found Wilds quite easy once you have kept Discus for the length of time I have. If anyone would care to browse :Simply Discus: forums, You will find a subject called :From the source: in which we have a Heckle & wild Project, most of the leading Discus breeders (among which is Heiko Blair) and many others World wide have published much on the debate of (Wilds V's Domestic). I never advocated anyone to turn to Wilds unless they have had, \"many years experience of keeping of Discus\". and to look into the outlay of cost before even considering it.
It is O.M.O and an insight into wild, as for Disease they are no different than any other species, in fact considering what they have to cope with in there natural enviroment they are indeed hardier. as for feeding No problems there.
If you like I will post a Library inclusion, but in the past they have tended to get deleted after a few months,
As always Think before you venture into a new Challenge.
Regards
Russ

I suppose the have evolved in the wild to be naturally immune to a \"variety\" off low level of diseases found in the natural haunts of the amazon brooks, how ever them have not evolved to take the same water conditions of an enclosed environment, the off spring of F2, F3 through natural selection start to take on this effect..

Hi Sean
Agree up to a point, but the question was wilds, by that I mean F' from the source. although it is nearly impossible to creat a True amazon biotope you can get close.I know many watched the program the Abbyse, focusing on the amazon fish species, and you will have seen the diversity of water conditions,f rom cleat water ( white) to the black water. and would have noticed the water quality from silt to downright filthy. with silt- debr,& Mulm yet they survive and spawn. their imune sytstem has evolved to combat many diseases and have become hardy and healthier as a result.

Anthony wrote:

That is a bold statement to make Russell. Wild Discus are
easier to keep and more hardy than wilds. Most Discus keepers
will wait years before trying their hand at keepings wilds.
Unlike captive bred Discus they need soft acidic water. They
usually have parasites(depending were you bought them) and they
have to be dewormed.
Some will never feed for you unless you are feeding live food.

I am not going against your experience or knowledge but I think
that post is a dangerous. I can see some poor fool ging out
tomorrow with a pocket full of money with the intend of buying
wild discus.

Finally on wild animals.
Captive/tame animals are more healthy/stronger and less afraid
of humans. You would be more than likely to be attacked by
a Lion in the Zoo than one in the wild if you came into contact
with one. Don`t think I am going on at you but it is you post
I have problems with.If you ever get those Tefe to breed I stil
have first dibs on them.
All the best Anthony.

Anthony,
Discus can take a Ph of 8 and as low as 3. I am sure Sean will back me up on this,
Any WILD fish is likely to have Worms and other infections so I don't see the relevance,
It is the knowlengable importer that knows his exporter that will give you GOOD stock.
As for feeding where is the problem!!! never known one.
As for lions I keep my distance.

@ Russel


Anthony,
Discus can take a Ph of 8 and as low as 3. I am sure Sean will back me up on this,
Any WILD fish is likely to have Worms and other infections so I don't see the relevance,
It is the knowlengable importer that knows his exporter that will give you GOOD stock.
As for feeding where is the problem!!! never known one.
As for lions I keep my distance.[/quote]

Sorry Russel,
apart from the fish are likely to have worms:) the rest I doubt, I only kept discus for a few years in the 80´s so I am no expert, I kept them at 5.8pH at that very low pH the bacteria in the filter struggles to work, (bacteria that break down NH3 and NO2 dont like light or acid water i.e more acid water than 5.9pH) hence zeolite and water changes, which probally planted the seeds in mind for my to get out of discus even through they are a very nice looking fish assuming you get really genetically colourful ones. as a brown discus is prime condition is brown and a blue in prime condition is also brown!especially if it came from Glencrap wholesalers in norther Ireland.

To be honest russel in 2033 when I retire I probally would keep discus as there nice if you have loads of spare time, I would probally go for the very finest European stock that are half grown, and are already show spectacular colour, or if Jack Waterey is still alive:laugh: may be I would get them from , him, although I doubt is he was very rude to me in the early 90´s I live in Florida then, arrogance is too kind a word for him.

Hi Sean
Heckles can live in 3.5 Ph.and almost neat R.O

russell wrote:

Hi Sean
Heckles can live in 3.5 Ph.and almost neat R.O

I sure they can but can you back it up with a link.3.5pH-8pH, also define \"live\" survive or comfortable in.

just as a comparison for those readers not too familiar with acidity. for example the pH of Coke is at about 3.5-3.8. Fruit juices such as lime, orange and apple juices are roughly between 3.0-3.5.
I'd love to see the contribution of a particular former user to this topic...

Hi.
If you go to Simply Discus site which is the worldwide Discus Site and look under ther lowest Ph Topic you will find Heckles have been caught in Ph of 3.5 to 3.8 Poted by Larry Matincheck Of the Discus University.
End of.

[img] Hi Russel, I could not find th link, if you click on this it gets a little bit worring.

www.simplydiscus.com/library/water_chemi...eneral/ph_drop.shtml

I have thought of a possible other reason for the low pH post over a drop of brandy, what if and only if, you are trying to copy Gold finger, he had half the gold bullion in the world, he did not want to steal the rest from fort Knox, but instead plant a nuclear bomb so to reader the gold radio active so it could not be sold, hence tripling the value of his gold. What if you plot is to suggest to Irish discus keepers to drop the pH to 3.5 rendering pan cakes so as to increase the rarity and value of your heckles?

Whats the story with mixing discus from different sources, two sources in particular(cant remember which) I seem to rememeber it leads to bad health ect.

Hi.
I am not getting drawn into any arguments, Just to say if the thread is read properly I was stating that Wild Discus and I repeat Wild as in the Amazon, that Discus have been found in waters of a Ph of 3.5, This is Typical of Manus where in the stormy season with the Acid rain and high run of from the forrest that the Ph has been known to drop to 2Ph, when this happens they move further of shore to where the Ph is around 3.5 to 3.8,
I also have a friend in the U.K & Americe who keep there Heckles at 3.5 / 3.8.
As for mixing Wilds all I will say that mixing is not recomended for the Inexperienced unless for a specific reason. i.e to improve the strain & colour.
The example being Jack Wately. Axelrod & Schultz. remembering that there were only 4 Discus strains Originaly. Namely the Heckle. Brown, Green & Blue, and from selective breeding & genetics came the Discus you have To day. If you start trying to x / breed without knowing what you are doing you will end up with weaker strains & mutations.

Re Worrying post

It states that any RAPID decrease in Ph is dangerous, I AGREE and any change in Ph should be no more than 0.5 IN 24 HOURS.a nd not undertaken lightly by the inexperienced
The trouble with working with a Ph that is arround the 4.5 mark is keeping it stable, as a Ph this low can readily plummet causing death. I totaly agree!!!!
With Laker Manus & Tefe with Lakes being vast the Ph stays constant. and when the tropical storms arrive lowering the Ph they move further off shore, where the Ph is higher. usauly with Heckles at about the 3.5 to 4.0 mark.

Hi Russel, like I said your are probally right its unlikely you want to increase the rarity of discus in Ireland , to make your stock tribel in value. Goldfinger style.

All I am asking from you is to search on line for the text that states that the can live in 2pH-3.8pH, when you arrive at it the website instead of saying www.anydiscus.com will say something like www.any discus/manusph3etcetc5687658 at the top of the screen where the website is the click on that, right click on your mouse, copy that, then come back to the ITFS forum, then post, then click on edit (beside file) and paste then your \"link\" this will be there for every one to see without spending hours searching on line for the same thing.:ohmy:

I said that The Ph of Lake Manus drops to a Ph of 2 to 3 in the rainy season. not that Discus live in that Ph, but move off shore to a more stable & suitable Ph, aroung the 3.5 - 3.8 FOR HECKLES, Please read the thread fully.

Look under Simplydisdcus.com
General topic
Lowest Ph

Quote:
I've read where Heckels have been caught in blackwater with a pH of 3.8. I've personally kept Heckels at 3.8 pH.

Mat
__________________
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Fr. Jack ITFS Logo wrote:

Hi Russel, like I said your are probally right its unlikely you want to increase the rarity of discus in Ireland , to make your stock tribel in value. Goldfinger style.

All I am asking from you is to search on line for the text that states that the can live in 2pH-3.8pH,

A stated I did not say they live in Ph of 2 that is impossible. but they can and do live & spawn in 3.5 And above. many in 3.8

I have done a little bit of reaserc while I wait for your link to click on that brings me directly to where it says 3.5-3.8pH as if I go into simplydiscus.com I cannot find any quote for 3.5-3.8pH

From what I can see they all seem to talk about heckels can take lower PH than other discus but 5.0-5-5pH seems to be what most talk about.

answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070328074804AABcNV2

forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=61771

russell wrote:

Hi Sean
Heckles can live in 3.5 Ph.and almost neat R.O

Russel 6 days ago or to precise on the 15th of Jan you state 3.5pH, but your R&D work was done on an American site on the 01/17/08 (U.S date) or 17/1/08.(Europe date)


01-17-2008, 11:57 AM #1
russell
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Lowest Ph

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Hi all,
Can any one tell me lowest Ph that is found in the Amazon to support Discus, and in what region.
regards
Russ

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01-17-2008, 09:38 PM #2
ShinShin
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Re: Lowest Ph

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I've read where Heckels have been caught in blackwater with a pH of 3.8. I've personally kept Heckels at 3.8 pH.

Mat
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01-19-2008, 10:29 AM #3
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Re: Lowest Ph

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinShin
I've read where Heckels have been caught in blackwater with a pH of 3.8. I've personally kept Heckels at 3.8 pH.

Mat

Wow. How do you keep this parameters constant or prevent the ph from crashing?__________________
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www.gulfcoastdiscus.com

No Answer given to date from a Mr. Larry E. IfycheckpH, besided he is one poster, dont beleive half of what is written on the net.

\"dont beleive half of what is written on the net\". Qoute from Sean!!

I hope that includes your advice.

OK lads,

I think the subject has now been explored in sufficient depth.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience !

Valerie