KH and GH

I'm getting a tad frustrated here I need soft water. My well water goes through a softener then into the house. Out of the tap the water reads:
KH = 356.96 +/- a few degrees.
GH = 0
pH = 8.4
I know I have to reduce the KH to bring down the pH and how to do it, but how do I do that and raise the GH to a better level?
I have two other options, would one of them be better I wonder.
Option 2: Would it be better to start with the OR water in the house and adjust everything from there?
Option 3: Would it be better to start with water direct from the well then adjust everything down?
Hope I'm making sense. It's been a week or two since I was at school LOL.
Bill

kh is carbonate hardness and is also called temporary hardness. It usually leaves water after 10 days or so. It can be removed immediately by boiling the water. the readings you give would give water with instability as the complete lack of gh would lead to a severe drop in ph when the temporary hardness reduces. It can be very complicated and I would leave the water as it is and allow the fish to adapt to the conditions. a small piece of cuttlefish shell would raise the gh slowly.
Anyway i'm starting to confuse myself now lol.

What type of softener is used?
Is it one regenerated by using sodium chloride (common salt)?

If your GH and KH readings are correct, then I suspect (but that depends on the water softener you use) that your water is high in carbonates and bicarbonates of sodium: ie the KH test kit is detecting the effects of the carbonate and bicarbonate ions (and very likely some hydroxide as well), yet the GH test will not detect the sodium as the GH test kit is a calcium/magnesium test kit (and I am guessing your water softener has removed them and replaced them with sodium ions).
That is assuming that your softener is an cation exchanger (but it may not be).

Also, what are the units of your hardeness test kit? ppm? [different kits read in different units]

ian

Thanks for the replies.
It's a sodium chloride softener. Prior to installation we were descaling kettles etc every 48hrs. Shower heads were just hopeless.
The test kit measures in degrees. When comparing the test to the chart the highest it showed for KH was 20 deg. d. and the test was actually a shade darker than 20. I used a converter to work out the ppm and suspect that the ppm may actually be a little higher. The lowest figure for GH was 0 deg. d. and the test showed a slightly paler colour than 0.
should I put the water back in and test again daily or do you think it might not drop itself?
Thanks for the help. In the sixties we only seemed to worry about pH
Bill

I used coral sand and crushed shell to stabilize ph and raise gh in my tank. The kind of big fish I'm keeping are not so sensitive to gh levels, my arowanna and large plecos are ph and nitrite sensitive.

There are quite a few units for hardness, and 3 or 4 common units use degrees in their measurement (german, french, american and the old classic clark degree or english degree......that's what I would have used before Tetra test kits dominated the hardness testing in fish keeping with the DH scale).

Do you add lime (not like in vodka and lime ) to your well ?

Can you get some test results before the water goes to the softener.

ian

No lime added to the well or vodka
I have a tap that comes off the well just before the softener. I'll do a test on that tomorrow.
Bill

Bill wrote:

No lime added to the well or vodka
I have a tap that comes off the well just before the softener. I'll do a test on that tomorrow.
Bill

OK.
Do so, and we can go from there.

ian

Sorry for the delay.
A full test on the water straight from the well:
NO3 = 0
NO2 = 0
GH = 8degs d
KH = 20degs d
pH = 8
Cl2 = 0

Bill

OK.

So, we see that GH has been demolished after passing through the softener........as I would have expected.

What that means, then, is that there is 99% chance (ie I can't be 100% unless the water was fully tested) that your water softener replaced what is sometimes called temporary hardness with a less than temporary bicarbonate/carbonate hardness due to soluble carbonate/bicarbonates.
If the bicarbonate had been left as calcium or magnesium then that would quite easily preciptate out of solution, but sodium bicarbonate/carbonate will not precipate out of solution...........to put it simply (I won't go into the full science here)

ie the water softener has made things worse for your tank.

ian

why not just use the water coming off the tap before the water softner????for your tank

Thanks Ian. Meanwhile I'm letting the water stand for a few days this time to see how much will dissipate, if at all, and how much I'm then left with. The container, this morning, looked as though it had been filled with fizzy water! (whiskey and soda might be the order of the day) I'll do more tests every 24hrs to see what happens.

carlowchris wrote:

why not just use the water coming off the tap before the water softner????for your tank

That is one of my two options mentioned above, the other being starting with the RO water. I'm not sure which will be easier to adjust though. I would have to experiment. I suppose a third option may be a mix of well water and RO.
Bill

It doesn't look as though anything will dissipate from the water by itself. All readings are still the same after 24hrs.
Perhaps I'm best to start trying a mix of well water and RO water and make any necessary adjustments from there.
Bill

Bill wrote:

It doesn't look as though anything will dissipate from the water by itself. All readings are still the same after 24hrs.
Perhaps I'm best to start trying a mix of well water and RO water and make any necessary adjustments from there.
Bill

Is this for the water after passing through the softener?
or before passing it through the softener?

Remember that the KH is not a test for hardness.............it is a pH test kit that assumes (incorrectly) that the chemicals giving rise to a high KH are ones that cause water hardness.

ian

My apologies it was the water from the softener that I left sitting and tested again.
I'm beginning to confuse myself now If I deal with the pH will it take care of the KH or am I continuing to confuse myself?
Bill

Bill wrote:

My apologies it was the water from the softener that I left sitting and tested again.
I'm beginning to confuse myself now If I deal with the pH will it take care of the KH or am I continuing to confuse myself?
Bill

if ya raise the kh it will raise the ph and keep it stable

Bill wrote:

My apologies it was the water from the softener that I left sitting and tested again.
I'm beginning to confuse myself now If I deal with the pH will it take care of the KH or am I continuing to confuse myself?
Bill

I would not expect anything to dissipate from the water softener water.

If the water had calcium/magnesium bicarbonate (quite soluble) then some of that could precipitate out of solution as calcium/magnesium carbonate with time; but your softened water has the Ca/Mg removed and replaced by double the concentration of sodium.

Sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate are both rather soluble.
Sodium carbonate can be very caustic..............it softens hard water caused by temporary hardness but can increase pH to levels not acceptable by most fish.

Some badly authored books used to recommend using sodium carbonate (washing soda) to soften water for such fish as discus............yes, it would soften the water but the pH could go off the scale.

At this stage, once softened by your water softener, the KH test kit is not really valid as it is probably not a hardness test kit in the first place.
What kit do you use?

Where confusion kicks in is with common misconceptions of water chemistry.

ian

carlowchris wrote:

if ya raise the kh it will raise the ph and keep it stable

But I need the pH dropped to around 6 or less. Will dropping the pH do similar?
Bill

igmillichip wrote:

I would not expect anything to dissipate from the water softener water.

If the water had calcium/magnesium bicarbonate (quite soluble) then some of that could precipitate out of solution as calcium/magnesium carbonate with time; but your softened water has the Ca/Mg removed and replaced by double the concentration of sodium.

Sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate are both rather soluble.
Sodium carbonate can be very caustic..............it softens hard water caused by temporary hardness but can increase pH to levels not acceptable by most fish.

Some badly authored books used to recommend using sodium carbonate (washing soda) to soften water for such fish as discus............yes, it would soften the water but the pH could go off the scale.

At this stage, once softened by your water softener, the KH test kit is not really valid as it is probably not a hardness test kit in the first place.
What kit do you use?

Where confusion kicks in is with common misconceptions of water chemistry.

ian

Hi Ian, I'm using the Tetra test 6in1.
Bill

I would not be a great fan of the test strip for any deep analysis of water parameters..........fine for a quick visual check of some of them though.

Bill, the water softener does a great job at softening water for use in washing machines etc, but not a great job for stabilising or preparing aquarium water.

Soft water with a high pH can be a problem for stability.

The carbonate/bicarbonate/carbonic acid/carbon diooxide buffer system is a great buffer system.............but it needs to lie within a region of buffering applicable to your needs.

ian

Thanks Ian.
As a very quick experiment I took some well water and RO water and mixed them 50/50 just to see what would happen. I got readings of:
GH = 8degs. d
KH = 15degs. d
pH = 7.6
Would you agree that my best bet would be to find a suitable mix for my needs then tweak pH a little?
Bill

Is there a reason why you're trying to get a pH of 6 btw?

ian

ro water should have a neutral ph but well waters is going to be running through rock and soil,,, I'm assuming this may not always be constant due to the amount of rain

think ya might be better off using all ro water rather than a mix

igmillichip wrote:

Is there a reason why you're trying to get a pH of 6 btw?

ian

I will mainly be doing Gourami/Betta and Killis. At a later stage African Cichlids. I'll be OK for the Cichlids, but it's the Gourami/Betta that concerns me.
Bill

carlowchris wrote:

think ya might be better off using all ro water rather than a mix

I was thinking - rightly or wrongly - that I may end up with more stable pH etc if I mix the water rather than strip it all out and trying to put it back.
Bill

Bill wrote:

igmillichip wrote:

Is there a reason why you're trying to get a pH of 6 btw?

ian

I will mainly be doing Gourami/Betta and Killis. At a later stage African Cichlids. I'll be OK for the Cichlids, but it's the Gourami/Betta that concerns me.
Bill

Most (I say most as there are exceptions) gouramis available will do fine in a large range of water conditions.
But, if you are talking about wild caught or some rather special gourami such chocolate or liquorice then your water is really going to have be tip-top.
If you expect to breed chocolate or liquorice gourami then you really do need very special water as they demand a very low conductivity and very low pH.

Now, when talking about Betta.............some Betta species would, like the above fish, want very low conductivity water and a low peaty pH (and etc etc)
But I am going to guess you are talking about siamese fighting fish.
As with commonly available gourami, most of the siamese fighting fish you will see are tank bred......so conditions are quite wide.

Your water softener has not made a nice mix to be honest.

If you mix ROI with your tap water there is no guarantee of it being stable.............it depends on the exact chemical composition of original water: and you don't know what that is.

It may luckily be such to a have a stable pH when mixed; but it may easily swing up or down: it is impossible to predict which will happen unless you know the exact chemical composition of the original water (so if a shop, say, tells you different then they are BSing )

ian

Thanks, Ian. Looks like I've given myself a headache with it.
Chocolates and liquorice were actually on the menu, there would beat least 1 pair of Betta splendens of good quality but mainly it would be other species. Looks like I will just have to put in a bit more work regarding water parameters than I thought and see how things go and what I can keep. I may have to change my plans.
Thanks for all the feedback.
Bill.

If you are going with Chocolates or Liquorice, then I would recommend setting up a tank now with your well water.

Remember these do not need monster tanks.


Get it running.....for a good few weeks...then make small removals of water and replace with RO water a bit at a time before adding fish.

That will serve at least 3 purposes:

a) these fish like mature systems...........your system will have a good maturity about it.
b) the well water will speedily start your biological filtration.........acidic water with low alkalinity will not favour development of your aerobic bacteria for oxidation of ammonia and oxidation of nitrites to nitrates. The small changes using RO water over a few weeks will mean that the bacteria suffer less shock than one big change.
c) you can monitor the stability of the water as you remove more of the original and add RO instead.....and adding either peat or other means to introduce tannings.

ian

...and that reminds me, I never did get around to doing part 2 of my gourami breeding article: the part for mouthbrooding gouramis.

Hi Ian,
Thanks, you confirmed my plan for me. I'm making a 48" tank, with 3 divisions, ready now, although I had intended to partially fill with well water and adjust with RO at the same time and put in some turf. However, I certainly see the logic with your suggestion of running it for a few weeks and gradually mixing with RO. so I will certainly follow your advice and take more time.
I appreciate you taking the time to help with this.
Bill.