whitespot on fry

After been away for the weekend i came home to find my young Microrasbora Galaxy (Celestichthys margaritatus)with the worst case of white spot i have ever seen.
It has wiped out most of them leaving me with 7 of the bigger ones (1cm).
I think this is the first time any of my fish have had white spot and was lucky enough to have some Esha Exit at hand.

Has anyone ever treated young fish with this? Did you have any problems?

Darren.

never had to treat fry but some apistos who caught whitespot in transit from Brazil. They are generally one of the first species to start back paddling. You don't really have much of a choice.

The eSHa stuff is supposed to be very good and doesn't stress the fish. I suppose it's worth a try and you'll probably loose them if you don't do something soon.

I think it would vary hugely from one species of fry to the other but I always found tank bred fry to be really robust.

Keep us posted!

KenS wrote:

The eSHa stuff is supposed to be very good and doesn't stress the fish. I suppose it's worth a try and you'll probably loose them if you don't do something soon.

truer words have not been said

I treated them last night with the Esha Exit.
They are all still alive today even if they are in bits.
The only other meds i have for white spot is Waterlife's protozin. I'm pretty sure this would be too severe on them and i wouldent have them all still alive today.
I will keep you posted.

Protozin isn't that severe either. I had to treat my African tank and my Aceis bred during the treatment.

I've heard that eSHa exit is every bit as good so hopefully they'll pull through.

I used to work on a fresh water tropicdal fish farm south of Tampa Florida, with fry they stay away from formalin and malachite green, as fry of any species could not take it, and even adults species such as eels and wrasses only just tolarerate it, with fresh water fry copper sulhate was the pre fered choice.


edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA008

Interesting link Fr. jack
Unfortunately my alkalinity is only 30ppm so copper sulphate is out of the question in this tank. But i will keep it in mind for future problems.
Esha claim the Exit is safe for fry. They dont say what is in there products.
Protozin needs to be half dosed for loaches,botias etc. It cant be used on mormyrids,rays or other scaleless fish.
So i taught the Esha Exit would be the safest bet. So far they are all alive and doing well. Some still have ich. so i may have to dose again.

platty252 wrote:

Some still have ich. so i may have to dose again.

The lifecycle of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is well documented and I am sure that the full 14 days minimum treatment will give you good results.

It is such a shame that there is no control over importers to eradicate this parasite before it reaches our tanks. I really believe any supplier who passes on Ich should be responsible for all costs to both treat the fish and replace all losses incurred. I will not hold my breath waiting for that though... it is such a good 'money spinner' for them... dead fish means you buy more!

Carl:angry:

Hi carl. The fry i have are from stock i have bread myself so i cant blame a retailer for that.
White spot is usually associated with a drop in temperature. Some say it is present in all aquariums just waiting for a trigger to start the cycle.
I took the eggs from the parents tank and placed them in a tank that was freshly set up and had no fish in it previously.
I still managed to get whit spot.

Some say it is present in all aquariums just waiting for a trigger to start the cycle.

All the top researchers who claim that once the parasite has been eradicated it stays eradicated until introduced to the closed system again have refuted this. It cannot lie dormant. Dr. Peter Burgess is the undisputed expert on this infection and is famously quoted as saying in print (PFK mag Nov 2001) \"What utter rubbish\" in relation to a dormant stage.

Is it possible it was brought in on equpiment?... net, filter, filter media or plants, rocks, gravel etc form another tank? A seemingly healthy tank with mature healthy fish that are resistant can harbour Ich unseen and undiagnosed for a long time, as the trophont will prefer to attach to the soft tissue underneath the gill cover. The only indication of its presence may be that fish are flashing, scratching or generally looking irritated. A healthy tank of fish can survive quite some time before succumbing to a full attack where the spots are noticeable on the body.

At low temperatures it's life cycle is slowed down greatly. The trophont or feeding stage attached to the host and seen as the all too familiar ‘white spots’ is temperature-sensitive. At normal tropical aquarium temperatures it matures in three to four days. At cooler temperatures the whole cycle can be slowed to more than five weeks, which means greatly extended treatment to fully eradicate it. This is one of the reasons it is recommended to raise the temperature as high as the fish will stand without being overstressed.

Good luck with the treatment & I hope you manage to save most of them.

Carl wrote:

Dr. Peter Burgess is the undisputed expert on this infection and is famously quoted as saying in print (PFK mag Nov 2001) \"What utter rubbish\" in relation to a dormant stage.

And he also wrote that there is no treatment resistant strain of it either but had to retract that as well

The only way it could have been transferred to these fish is if it was attached to the eggs.
The eggs were removed from the parents tank and added to a new tank.
New water, new tank, new air line and new airstone. No contact was made with any other tank.

PFK also claim these fish should be kept in hard water. Bull. IME the fry do verry badly in hard water and need verry soft water.
They also did an article recently on how to breed them. Judging from the article i dont even beleave they have bread them.

Dont believe everything you read.

I forgot to mention all the fry are still alive and the white spot has cleared off them.
Hopefully it wont appear on the fish again.

platty252 wrote:

Don’t believe everything you read.

I never do! So much bull**** has been propagated over and over again, especially on the internet, by people who have not researched in depth what they are passing on to unsuspecting, trusting people who take them at their word.

apistodiscus

And he (Dr. Peter Burgess) also wrote that there is no treatment resistant strain of it either but had to retract that as well

This I have not read. I thought I was up to date with Ich research and that all strains could be totally eradicated with the correct treatment. Can you link me to the articles so that I can increase my knowledge of the subject please? Particularly interested in non-treatable strains and strains that can lie dormant in freshwater aquaria, Thanks for your help. (Also interested in the whereabouts of the 2 retractions by Dr. Peter Burgess you mention... I love a bit of 'tail between the legs' gossip:P ).

Looking forward to a good read from your links apistodiscus, if there are no links please tell me which journals and issue number to look for. Thanks again.

Carl

It was in PFK. Will have to look in which issues. Will let you know when I find them

apistodiscus

Do you remember if there was any mention of the untreatable strains turning up in fish keepers’ aquaria? Do the untreatable strains mean 100% (as I would imagine) death rate? If not, do the surviving fish have immunity to the untreatable strains and/or become carriers?

I am a glutton for information:side:

apistodiscus
I have been trawling the PFK archive for any references to the articles you mention but have drawn a blank. Have you found your references yet?

I could copy and quote and cause war ref certain above posts but I have not got the energy, to check mate, I got borred of playing chess, however in the interst in reducing mortality (from a green or moral point of view) here is a 2 liner, fish bacterial infections have got imunity to certain anit biotics ( farmed tropicals breed) that why some times sensivity test are done before electing the right anit biotic treatment, but I never heard of proazoa having inunity sensitvity to formalin or malaghite green, if that was the case, if you take a little bit of poison with your corn flakes increaing the levels monthly , you would be final imniumed to lethal doses:unsure:
In aquaculture vacines do exist to help prevent an hole array of virus.

Fr. Jack wrote:

I could copy and quote and cause war ref certain above posts but I have not got the energy, to check mate, I got borred of playing chess, however in the interst in reducing mortality (from a green or moral point of view) here is a 2 liner, fish bacterial infections have got imunity to certain anit biotics ( farmed tropicals breed) that why some times sensivity test are done before electing the right anit biotic treatment, but I never heard of proazoa having inunity sensitvity to formalin or malaghite green, if that was the case, if you take a little bit of poison with your corn flakes increaing the levels monthly , you would be final imniumed to lethal doses:unsure:
In aquaculture vacines do exist to help prevent an hole array of virus.

Hi Fr. Jack,
I am interested in all aspects of 'disease' prevention and treatment but do not understand your post:S
PLEASE elaborate so that everybody who reads this (including myself) can understand what you are saying. I am quite sure that there will be many newcomers to the forum who will find this discussion through the search facility and will need to read the entire thread to ascertain the correct way to treat Ichthyophthirius Multifiliis and will find your reply confusing. I hope by the time all who read this thread from start to finish will have a full understanding of the infection and its proper treatment. If I am wrong in any of my research or my assments I am more than willing to bow to my superiors and learn from their research and application of treatments. That most heartly includes you.

As I have said before in this particular post I an TOTALLY and OBSESSED with interest in any new findings or treatments for this (Ichthyophthirius Multifiliis) infection and welcome any contribution you may have. I know that it is not a \"fish bacterial infection\" as you have mentioned that can be treated with anti-biotics but many others may not. If you have a constructive addition to this post I would welcome it, as I am sure many others would also.

Please reply with additional information for those who need it (including myself... I have much to learn) apart from “I got borred of playing chess”… I am sure that whatever scientific data you have to contribute will be more than welcomed by all who are afflicted by this more than common infection.

Thank you and gratitude (on behalf of all who are in need of your expertise, mainly myself) for your help and input.

Carl Moylan, Glasnevin (and accountable for any researched information I may pass on).

OK so i was way off the mark when i said \"White spot is usually associated with a drop in temperature\".
It's an old wives tale i heard a long time ago.
I was not here when they got ich and the only thing that could have happened is a drop or increase in temperature.
I dont beleave it could have been introduced from an outside source. The immaculate infection.

Hi platty252,

Apologies for your post having being hijacked and taken such a circuitous route back to you.

Congratulations on having eradicated this protozoan parasite from your tank in the record time of 7 days. I wish you well and hope you never have to encounter this killer ciliate again.

All the best, Carl

@Carl,
didn't get the chance to go over the PFK back issues.
But have a read here:
www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=954

@apistodiscus
Thank you for that link. I had not read the article but did read the original publication it is based on.
The result of the research basically indicates a speeded up life cycle of these strains of Ich & a more aggressive treatment is needed to eradicate them from the system. Dosing every 3/4 days for a total of 12/16 days instead of the normal treatment schedule.

I forgot to mention that the 'speeded-up' strain of Ich has reached Ireland (needless to say really) and that all treatments should reflect this.

I don't think we have mentioned this but both protozoa and bacteria can be airborne. I know of one discus breeder who got fish in from South East Asia, kept them in his basement and the rest of his, mostly wild caught and F1 fish got the plague even though he does not use a centralized filtration system and even every tank has a dedicated net to avoid disease transmission.
Wiped over 500 discus out in less than 10 days.
That's what you get from buying pigeon bloods

apistodiscus wrote:

I don't think we have mentioned this but both protozoa and bacteria can be airborne.

Just for clarity, so that anybody reading this does not become confused, it may be worth pointing out that Ich/White Spot/Ichthyophthirius Multifiliis is not airborn and must be physically introduced into the aquarium.

all protozoa can have an aerial transmission. Vetenary Epidemiology by Michael Thrusfield and The Ecology of Wildlife Diseases by Peter John Hudson make an interesting read for those interested and with a background in biology.
I wouldn't bet against whitespot having one as well even if it hasn't been shown yet. Actually, I think it rather likely that is has one since protozoa need to be suspended in tiny water droplets that float in the air and then are either inhaled by their next host (not applicable in fish) or drop into a body of water or into the soil and are then ingested by a host.

apistodiscus wrote:

all protozoa can have an aerial transmission... Actually, I think it rather likely that (Ich) is has one

My last post did not refer to my suspicions, assumptions or personal thoughts about the subject. I do not consider myself qualified to elaborate on the years of scientific research that has gone into studying Ich by professionals in their field.

It has been proven under laboratory conditions that vigorous aeration in an uncovered tank can cause enough splashes to travel up to 91.4cm with the aid of a fan to blow it (Bishop et al. 2003).

Technically this is airborne transmission and in reality any transmission of this kind is carelessness on the fish keepers part. Once again, to clarify things for anybody reading this thread and using it as a source of hopefully accurate information, Ich cannot just leave an infected body of water and float about in the air until it finds another body of water to infect. There is no danger of Ich infecting an aquarium by blowing in the window from an unknown source etc.

There is no mystery, uncertainty or loose ends left by the dedicated researchers that should leave us fish keepers in any doubt as to how it is transmitted, diagnosed or treated.

not to start an argument here but so far I have seen none of the experts come out with any theory that shows why whitespot breaks out in a well established tank that had no addition of fish/plants or decor for many months. Waterchanges have been carried out with re/mineralized RO water. Since they still claim that no latent forms of ichtyo exist I can't figure out why it still happens unless there is some form of transmission that has not been discovered yet