A New Reef Is Found (In Tullamore!!)

Quick Update,

Added another 16kg of Live Rock last night and added the rest of the sand. I also lowered the MH lights to 25cm from water surface. Skimmer finally starting to pull out some gunk.


I'm skimming fairly wet at the moment to get the gunk out. Will tone it down a bit to a dryer skim when tank is cycled.


Hurrah!!! My first lot of Reef Crap


Left side with additional 16kg live rock. I'm much happier with this side now. In total, there is almost 80kg of live rock in the tank now!


Completed Aquascape as of this morning.

Timers now set as follows
Actinics on at 8am off at 8pm
MH lights on at 9am off at 7pm

Ammonia is still at 0
Nitrite is still at 0
Nitrate is still at 0
SG 1.0255
pH 8.2
Temp 25.5 degrees

What do I need to ge tthe cycle started? a few prawns ?
It's been >72 hours now and no detectable levels found yet.
Is lighting times OK. Or should I leave them off for now?

Kind regards
Seany

Forgot to mention that the first signs of life is already evident as of yesterday morning. Hundreds of little white shrimp-like creatures jerking about the live rock. ? copepods.They are about 2-3mm in size. A good sign?
Until next time....

Seany

Its all coming together nicely and the LHF looks a lot better now. Congradtulations on get your first gunk! from your skimmer, you must be delighted! As for the source of ammonia! I'm not sure if its the same for fresh water so I'm not going to suggested anything and leave if up to the folks with experience.

fantastic post.. keep it up, quick question: digital ph monitor...
what's the story, where did you buy it, expensive? does it fluctuate.
those ph pens are kindof rubbish and considering investing in a pair of these.

Thanks Guys,

@ tanks_alot
Many thanks for your kind comments

@ arabesque
My work as a Medical Scientist means I have access to these at work. This one is \"borrowed\" courtesy of the HSE. Try ebay, They usually have a few. Make sure to get hold of some calibration solution as well. VERY IMPORTANT. These monitor need to be regularly checked.
Seany

A quick update,

Added a good pinch of tropical flake food 2 days ago to get the ball rolling.

Tested again this morning before I left for 2 days in London

Ammonia is still at 0
Nitrite is still at 0
Nitrate is still at 0
SG 1.025
pH 8.2
Temp 25.5 degrees

When is the Nitrogen cycle supposed to start?
Skimmer isn't even pulling out that much gunk at the moment!
Should get a few starter fish to get things moving. As the Live Rock was so well cured, I guess no cycle will be detectable. My one worry is that if the bacteria don't get something to work on shortly they will start to dwindle/die off.

Help guys especially all you experienced reefers out there.

Seany

Hi Seany,firstly what test kits are you using ?.If the liverock is well cured,it will start to work very quickly at breaking down ammonia and nitrogenous compounds etc .Your rock won't have any die off on it which normally happens.I'd leave it for a day or two and maybe add a couple of hardy fish to get it started,don't feed too much and monitor closley.You could keep adding food to add ammonia to be broken down,the cycle will eventually start when your rock etc can't fully break down the ammonia being produced.

Hi Kieronr,

I'm using the API SALTWATER REEF TEST KIT.

Known Tank Cycling Options

* Add some hermit and/or true crabs instead. They are pretty hardy animals, rather inexpensive, and will cycle your tank just as well as fish do. Besides, they can be pretty entertaining critters to have. (I don't want to risk it)

* Cycle the tank with live rock and/or live sand. These are both living parts of the reef that produce waste. Not only will they cycle the aquarium, they become the main source of biological filtration itself. (Have this in place already/ no evidence of cycle yet)

*Add ammonium chloride. As detailed by John Tullock or Martin A. Moe, Jr.'s \"The Marine Aquarium Handbook. (Hard to source this stuff and expensive)

*Use the Cocktail Shrimp Cycling Method. (Tesco/Dunnes shrimps are only available in pack of 10-15 shrimps/ I only want 1)

* This may sound a little off the wall, and people have done it, but you can use human urine as the ammonia source. (Cheap/Easy to come by/No expense/No chemicals/Natural??/No livestock at risk)

Might add some urine! as a good source of Ammonia when I get back home tomorrow morning.
That should get things started. I'll stay away from the drink ofr 24 hours and drink plenty of spring water to ensure the best quality urine for the reef!!!

Let you know how it goes

Seany

Getting a mental picture of Seany standing on a step ladder pissing into the tank.

Hi Guys,
I admit its not for everyone, but a little urine in the tank will cycle it nicely. I've known two UK fishkeepers who swear by it.

My worries now are that the bacteria present in the Live Rock cannot really grow unless there is something for them to live on, which is where the urine comes in. They convert Ammonia to Nitrate / Nitrite because they live on this process, so they cannot live where there is no food for them.

In case you were wondering, urine is pretty sterile so the chances of contamination are low.

Quote from a fellow fishkeeper

\"I tested this by using three identical tanks, one with urine, one with bottled ammonia and one with no additions at all. The \"P\" tank cycled a lot faster and the ammonia spike was much less pronounced when the fish went in.\"

I have a bit of an ethical problem with adding any animal in my care to an environment I know will probably kill it, even if it is only a lone damselfish, so I cannot really support the suggestion that you just throw some in and replace them when the job is done.

One last thing for anyone looking to replicate this experiment. Make sure your urine donor is not on antibiotics - this would have the complete opposite effect!

Will let you know how plan \"P\" worked over the coming days

Seany

Now that's what I call taking the piss.

Ihave to admit thats a new one on me but the theory behind it sounds fine.I'm not sure if i'd be willing to try it but i'd certainly inquire what the donor had eaten or drank the night before!.That counts me out for starters.What dosage is recommended ?.If you go ahead,keep us informed.Ingenious.

Hi All,

Back from London early this morning. Added 5ml fresh urine to the tank @ 6am. Sorry to those who add visions of me on a step ladder emptying my bladder completely into the tank! Although the system volume is 550 litres that would have been overkill especially as I was bursting when I got back from the drive from the airport.

Tested for Ammonia @ 8:30am. Ammonia level is now 0.25mg/L. My first spike in the Nitrogen cycle!. Off to Waterford for the weekend. Back on Sunday. I hope to detect some Nitrite/Nitrate by then. Will keep you updated.

Seany

@ Dave re PM
Sorry Dave. Too Late. Read your message after the act. But it will still make an interesting experiment none the less.

hi seany are you planning to quarintine your fish?

Hi lampeye

Yes, I'm setting up a juwel tank (approx 20L) with internal filter/heater to quarantine all livestock for 4 weeks before addition to the main tank. Sponge filter for this tank currently being seeded in sump of main display.
Kind regards
Seany

Have really noticed some changes in Live Rock appearance since I was away for 2 days.



Green algae with some purple in places. Notice the pearling effect on the surface. What gas is being produced? O2/CO2.



Some brown algae quite evident on this piece. Looks a little furry?

Time soon for a clean up crew I think. Comments and objections welcomed

Clean up crew

I've read that I should place one snail per 5 gallons and one hermit per five gallons.

That would mean I need to get 24 snails etc and 24 hermits. Seems a lot!

I've come up with an initial clean-up crew list and please feel free to help/comment on it. I have a 550l (120 gallon) aquarium for those who are not aware. Dave, if your watching, this is the shopping list!

Snails
8 - 10 Turbo Snails. These guys get pretty big I believe (up to 6’’ max).
8 - 10 Astrea Snails. Grow to about 4’’ max. My only concern is they have no righting reflex if they fall off the glass/liverock. Easy prey for others

Other possibilities (depending on LFS availability) are as follows

Trochus (Turban) max 3’’. Good long lived grazers
Tectus (pyramid) Max 3’’. Wholly herbivorous grazers
Cerithium (ceriths) Usually (1’’) Detritus feeders in sediment

Shrimps
5 Lysmata amboinensis (Cleaner Shrimp) 2’’
5 Lysmata debelius (Fire shrimp) 1.2’’
5 Lysmata wurdemanni (Peppermint shrimp) 1.5’’ Good at eating Aiptasia should they appear.

Crabs
8 Blue Legged Hermits
8 Scarlet Hermits

Maybe
1-2 Emerald Crabs. Unusually for crabs they are mostly herbivorous and only grow to 2’’

Kind regards
Seany

Great post Seany...loved every minute of it.

Am about to take the plunge to marine this week but am going to try the organic aqua method.
Don't think I have the balls, time or money to do it the real way. Still trying to get my head around the organic stuff...just doesn't make sense... but I will let ye know how I get on.

Anyone here already set up a marine using this system ?

Keep the posts and pics coming.
Top class thread.

Processor.

Processor wrote:

Great post Seany...loved every minute of it.

Am about to take the plunge to marine this week but am going to try the organic aqua method.
Don't think I have the balls, time or money to do it the real way. Still trying to get my head around the organic stuff...just doesn't make sense... but I will let ye know how I get on.

Anyone here already set up a marine using this system ?

Keep the posts and pics coming.
Top class thread.

Processor.

guppy any chance of keeping a weekly log on the forum.it would be intresting to see how the organic aquarium lasts over time

glad to see you are going to qt everything seany.

re your clean up crew: the number of snails/crabs sounds good.

Other possibilities (depending on LFS availability) are as follows



Trochus (Turban) max 3’’. Good long lived grazers

Tectus (pyramid) Max 3’’. Wholly herbivorous grazers

Cerithium (ceriths) Usually (1’’) Detritus feeders in sediment

you probably wont find these, or really need them with the exception of the ceriths which would be great if you can find them....i haven't had any luck getting them myself.



Shrimps

5 Lysmata amboinensis (Cleaner Shrimp) 2’’

5 Lysmata debelius (Fire shrimp) 1.2’’

5 Lysmata wurdemanni (Peppermint shrimp) 1.5’’ Good at eating Aiptasia should they appear.


cleaner shrimps are grrrreat! social, active, beautifull, hardy etc. good number to get. they are not shy at all.

fire shrimp are amazing looking, but they are apparently really really shy, some people only see them at feeding time. they are also twice the price of cleaners (about 50 euro each i think) so personally i'd give them a miss...but thats just me.

i dont know anything about peppermints.

Crabs
8 Blue Legged Hermits

8 Scarlet Hermits

i would get all reds if i was you. 2 reasons.
1. platty252 had a blue one that liked eating coraline algae.
2. i was told by a very experienced keeper/shop owner that there are a lot of different species of blues so you cant be sure exactly which ones you get...the reds imported on the other hand are definately all the same species. at the time i was about to buy blues.



1-2 Emerald Crabs. Unusually for crabs they are mostly herbivorous and only grow to 2’’

Seany

dont know anything about emerald crabs...i think platty252 had/has one??

Thanks lampeye,

Greatly appreciate the time/thought gone into your detailed reply. I'll take it all onboard.

Just back from a couple of days in Waterford to see the following!


Horrible brown algae all over Glass / Sand / Live Rock.


Close up of sand which was pristine white 48 hours ago.


Hairy brown algae all over pieces of liverock


Hairy brown stuff and mat forming green algae on this section. Compare to earlier picture of same piece taken a few days ago.

Water parameters as of 13:30pm, today,
Ammonia = 0.0
Nitrite = 0.0
Nitrate = 0.0
Phosphate = 0.0
Temp = 25.7
SG = 1.0255

My little ammonia spike of 0.25mg/L induced with 5ml of urine has been duly processed by the live rock as expected. Despite my earlier question of whether I should leave the lights on or off which was not answered I believe it did not help the current situation by leaving them on timers when I was away. Skimmer has now begun to pull out some gunk once again.

Questions...
1. Will I switch the lights off for now or will that only exacerbate the algae with die off or
2. Should I now get the clean up crew as a matter of urgency?

Kind regards
Seany

Pierce wrote: guppy any chance of keeping a weekly log on the forum.it would be intresting to see how the organic aquarium lasts over time

Ya I'll do that. Am just deciding on which tank...some difference in prices to be had but I'll probably go for a Rio 180.
I'll post as I go along...might not be as professional a write-up as Seany's but I'll do my best.

Sorry for hijacking this thread Seany...mods please move it if it's out of order.

Processor.

hi seany i missed that question re the lights...i left mine off while the tank was cycling and never had any troublke algae. the sand is nothing t oworry about its just diatoms, which is common in new tanks and will pass. if i was you id turn off the lights until you add a clean up crew. still cant believe you pissed in your tank!
i'd say you are good to go with the clean up crew but if you are still a bit anxious just get a dozen snails and 6 hermits to start....but you should be fine.

Thanks lampeye.

It was only 5ml, not a bladder full!

Will pick up clean up crew tomorrow hopefully.

Kind regards

Seany

good luck! im sure u already know this but acclimatize them really slowly, with the drip method and dont pu tany lfs water in your tank.

Don't panic to much,my guess is the tank is now starting to mature and the brown film is a natural part of that.It will disappear over time and start to be taken over by corraline algae depending on calcium available etc.On one of the photo's it looks like a type of bubble algae,you can manually remove this but be careful when doing it as if it bursts,it releases spores that spread through tank.I have come across this myself and its a real pain in the a**e !.Mithrax crabs eat it but are extremely fragile in the long term.You usually end up removing the piece of rock and taking off manually,the bloody stuff must be stuck with glue and always in the places you can't reach!.Leave the lights off for a bit longer,it won't do any harm but will slow the purple algae growing as it needs light etc.

Quick Update

Clean up crew added last night. I used the \"drip\" method to match the water parameters from the LFS to my tank with a length of airline tubing as demonstrated by Dave in AV. Clean up crew consists of

17 Trochus \"top\" snails
3 Turbo snails
17 Blues leg hermits (I have been assured, these guys are reef safe)
3 Scarlet leg hermits
7 Cleaner shrimp

I lost one cleaner shrimp during the night. The hermits made short work of him once he died and onother one has already moulted! One of the Trochus has not mived since he was added and I fear he is about to pass on to watery grave soon. Everyone else is fine.

The 3 Turbo snails disappeared behind some of the live rock and have not been seen since.

The blue leg hermits are quite small at the moment but have done a brilliant job with the sand already. Within 24 hours it is almost completely white again. The 16 Trochus have marched up the live rock and have already consumed about 10-15% of the green/brown algae already. The three scarlet legs have done alot of fighting amongst themselves but not much cleaning. Maybe when they get a bit hungry they will tackle the algae meadow with relish. Some photo's


This is one of my \"Trail Blazers\". You can clearly see the trail of cleaned live rock as he/she marches onwards.


Committee Meeting. Blue leg hermits discuss tactics before heading across the sand base to do some serious cleaning.


Hide and Seek. The remaining 6 cleaner are pretty shy at the moment and retreat behind the live rock when I enter the room.

Water parameters tested tonight show,

Ammonia = 0.0
Nitrite = 0.0
Nitrate = 0.0
pH = 8.4
Temp = 26.5
SG = 1.0255

Once all algae is gone, Its time for some fish I guess. Must get to work on a wishlist!
Keep you all posted
Kind regards
Seany

That picture of your \"Trail Blazers\" is quality and the committee caption is spot on. I have thoroughly enjoyed watching this tank come together, so thank you very much for taking the time to write the detailed reports and post pictures. After the discuss and beefheart article this thread is my favourite!

Why are you adding Urine to your tank. Urine contains all sorts of nasty toxins.
Why would you use anything to mature a Marine tank. Should the die off in the rocks not be enough.

Apparently Blue legged Hermits love to eat Coraline Algae.