Platinum White Plakat Fighters. What babies?

I normally like to breed siamese fighters when I have a good idea of what the final colour outcomes will be.

But, I've got some fry hatch today of Platinum White Plakat (Half Moons) siamese fighters....a nicely matched pair...and I eagerly look forward to seeing what sort of mad unknowns I'm going to get from these dark gree metallic fish that look pure white when looking at them.

If I manage to get any decent numbers of Platinum White babies then I'll probably do a charity pole-dance after having my hair cut (for charity of course).

Any guesses as to the colours I'm likely to get?

ian

I think that the siamese fighters are an amazing fish! unfortunately their behviour and attitude in general to eachother seems to make a community like setup impossible without experience or knowledge

Plakats are one of my favourites along with half moons

do you breed or keep many betta ian? or at least have nice pictures

with the platinum parents i would say you will get a few (maybe not many) platinum off spring.

But without any other colour on the fish Is it possible to figure out what colours could pop up on the young?

I could look up platinum plakat to try find out there ancestry to give some clues to what colours might show up.
Or i could guess and say green,blue and maybe some red. The normal colour verities you come across.

So did i give any real guesses?. Well no. But i taught it would be an interesting tread to keep going.
I'm sure you have an Ace waiting to fall from your sleeve Ian.

Normal fighters have 4 basic colour layers in their skin....but the platinum whites have a 5th major layer that covers the other layers and acts like Fish Make-Up (because they are worth it ).

I now that under that make-up layer is malachite green metallic colouring, and on my pair I also suspect that there is a 'butterfly red' effect on the fins.

Other than that, I'm really looking to see what great-great grandparent genes are going to pop up and surprise me.

@Draco....as you may know, I am a bit of fish-purist...but I ignore that when it comes to getting really good quality and unusual siamese fighter colours.....that is a nice looking fish you posted a pic of.

@Christor.....I have some pics of some of my fighters on a thread somewhere. I should get some more posted (but usually, the water is so darkly stained that you can't see the fish).

I have nearly a hundred adult siamese fighters around the house here (excluding these babies). Some simply 'pets' (usually aged females), some are cast-offs from line breeding that I want to keep but not breed from, and some are set aside for selection for the next stage in line-breeding.

@Platy....your guess is as good as mine on this one.

Next stage.....I've got a line of pure blondes I've bred and will cross them with these at some time.

ian

Ahh very interesting, would love to see more!

I have read quite deeply and been involved in a few guppy genetic forums, actually find genetics fascinating if not a little tricky to pick up at first with no real science background, got a B in GCSE doule award science

It seems in terms of breeding and their progression over the decades that guppys and siamese fighters fall under the same circumstances, all be it a few major differences in their breeding, one being guppies aka million fish are a lot easier and faster to breed while it seems fighters take a lot more time

would be interesting to read a little on siamese fighter genetics as they were my first real interest, but I settled or be it got sidetracked by guppies simply because of the requirements and practicallity of breeding them

Christor wrote:

Ahh very interesting, would love to see more!

I have read quite deeply and been involved in a few guppy genetic forums, actually find genetics fascinating if not a little tricky to pick up at first with no real science background, got a B in GCSE doule award science

It seems in terms of breeding and their progression over the decades that guppys and siamese fighters fall under the same circumstances, all be it a few major differences in their breeding, one being guppies aka million fish are a lot easier and faster to breed while it seems fighters take a lot more time

would be interesting to read a little on siamese fighter genetics as they were my first real interest, but I settled or be it got sidetracked by guppies simply because of the requirements and practicallity of breeding them

I was dabbling in siamese fish genetics long before I even started my 'O'-levels (we didn't have GCSE's in those days ).
I had a 1950s book by the great Myron Gordon (a geneticist who was also a fish keeper) on fighter genetics...I didn't understand half of the book, but it looked interesting.

My knowledge gained fish breeding (especially siamese fighters) came in very handy when I finally did get into science....ie using my fish keeping knowledge to help with my science studies rather than the other wa round.

Yep....guppies and fighters have fallen into a strange bracket or either having great fish or having some real cack.

I did a talk on siamese fighting fish line breeding at the ITFS a few months ago. The talk was quickly put together as a last-minute stand-in, so I didn't do an 'all complete' powerpoint.
But there is a link in the ITFS section here with a wee bit on the basic methodology of Line-Breeding.

With siamese fighters, as opposed to guppies, it takes a long-time and a lot of space.
In my opinion, it takes a minimum of 5 generations (and that could even be upto 9 lines) of parallel breeding to produce a decent line. That takes a lot of time and a lot of space.

Anyway, I've got a video with the plakats attempting to spawn.
The tank is very very dark (as I used a deep peat floor covering), but you can see the fish in parts from the side lamp.

I have a better video taken the other day, but I've not loaded it from the camera.

Im quite the same in the jargon at the moment, however the books and geneticist im reading(however i would say he is a "home schooled" enthusiast with a good grasp of genes) is very easy read and explained, and the guppy breeding community is a lot bigger than I thought, maybe you know or heard of him, the guppy designer aka phillip shaddock

In terms of space and time yeh guppies are the complete opposite, for one they wont kill eachother and their nickname the million fish explains the eas and lack of time needed to get generations

Is the siamese fightr breeding community big or is there one based in the UK or Ireland? I am a member of the Uk guppy society and its helped a lot and means I now have a much bigger selection of fish ti choose

some day however with space and time I would love to get into fighters, as for your platinums in the video, they look absolutely amazing Ian!

I'm not too sure what is going on in the breeders community in ireland to be honest.

I wouldn't be a big supporter of breeding for the sake of breeding, but I would support a planned breeding siamese fighter breeding programme.

The genetics of siamese fighter colours and finnage is quite complex....and one thing that concerns me is increasing the gene-pool of such things as brain-damaged fish (we see that in morph snake breeding). Often, many breeders only look at the genetics of colour rather than the genetics of brain function.

If you want to simply breed siamese fighters, then that is quite easy.
Breeding to attempt to get a certain line is not easy and, even with a planned programme, relies in some luck.

At times I give away my unwanted offspring....by 'unwanted' means that they are no use to me, they may have some not-great fancy colours, but will always be good quality basic fish stock (good chunky fish)

ian

Yes I kow all about the snake thing, star gazing is common in a few morphs though cant say I know much on the full story

definitely seems as you say, a certain degree of wreckless or narrow minded breeding when it comes to these fish, bettas and guppies are some of the easier manipulated fish for their colour, and as a result from line breeding immnuinity as well as other things have definitely been compromised

I have seen in fish shops some massive guppy males in comparison to that of a line bred fish, and i highly doubt a LFS or fish farm is feeding anything special to get such size

Ian the fish in most LFS are very slender I find, is this just the way they are being raised, or is it their genetics? as from just simple observation bettas that seem to be bred by privat breeders seem much chunkier as you say. Or possibly size is a "want" for bettas so this trait has been improved on

all interesting, would love to read more on it or hear about it

The production of colours in guppies and siamese fighters will have all the trappings of any captive breeding plus the mess of any old colour genetics thrown in.

Poor selection of parents gives poor offspring.....that selection should include body condition as well as colour. But, often colouration is the driving force behind some breedings.
With siamese fighters, if parents are selected with narrow dorsal and tail fin bases then the offspring are often muck.

Then, of course, sub-quality captive specimens have an easy life...and then end up being used for future breeding.

Many of the standard siamese fighters that you see in shops are not Betta splendens but a hybrid of more than one difference species.
I do not believe hybrids are necessarily stronger even if they have the potential to be.

For breeding siamese fighters (or gourami) in particular, I recommend having a very mature tank for raising the young. Those initial few days of having a mature tank (for microscopic food) would give something that no amount of 'liquifry' or added infusoria could give.

On the snakes, I am appalled at the number of 'quick-buck' breeders raising effectively duff animals.
If a siamese fish has a psychological problem, then it isn't really much of problem....but boa morph having severe neurological problems is a big problem.

ian

Thats very true, what keeps guppies in "reasonably" set standards is their showing, the tails and bodies are at set standards but this in itself is not very "natural".

Ah didnt know they were hybrids at all, is the betta embellus anything to go by? seen some in a shop and it seemed to be all females is all, didnt see any males after a quick look on google, look something quite similar.

Unfortunately the fish and shrimp I wish to use wouldnt be very compatible with fighters, goruamis possibly but not a big fan of them at all

In a couple of months,I will be looking at ordering a few blue grass guppy and platinum, possibly swallow tails (another lovely looking morph but one big downfall, cant reproduce with itself)

Unfortunately where colour and appearance is a driving factor in keeping nearly all pets this is an inevitable truth about breeding.

Not all are hybrids, but you often see the Betta smaragdina genes in 'Betta splendens' on sale, and there is also some Betta sp Mahachai genes as well.
Certain intense greens and scale patterns are the clues.

The problems that this brings when showing 'Betta splendens' at a general FBAS type show is that if you put a real Betta splendens on a show bench then someone will probably have a hybrid of one of the bigger species but entered and judged as 'Betta splendens'.

In the fighting fish specialist shows, size does not matter. But in general FBAS style shows, size does seem to matter.

ian

very interesting reading lads
just watched the vid aswell
lovely fighters
fairplay Ian
it'll be cool to see the colours You get from them
cool thread

Des

@Draco....I am most honored, I'm glad you like some of the posts. It would be good to meet yourself as well.
I'm pretty easy to reconise (well....whilst my hair still holds onto my fading scalp ) if I'm ever in a LFS at the same time.

I have some video and closish-up pictures (not easy to take) of the babies a day after hatching. So I'll have to download the stuff from my camera soon.

ian

sounds good ian! looking forward to seeing the babies colour up, roughly how long does it take anyway?

Christor wrote:

sounds good ian! looking forward to seeing the babies colour up, roughly how long does it take anyway?

It seems to take me forever to download the videos off my camera due to shear laziness

You start to get a good idea of some basic colours after about 4 weeks (sometimes earlier).
But there are some betta genes that make a fish look great at a young age but fade after a certain age. At 6 months you should know if the colours are pretty steady or not.....but that age is starting to get close to being too old for breeding in some cases.

ian

good post ian. looking forward to pics.

Here is a photo of the male...

I angled the flash to show the green under-colour.
You can even see the white colouration being reflected back quite strongly (a haze just above the top of his head).

Got to now process the videos of the babies as they hatch.

Really good fish, read and photos!

It's great when I read a post and it sucks me in to the point where I just want to run and get bettas my self.

Looking forward to see how the offspring will come out!

Melander

fair play ian they will be some fry would love if u could keep us posted about them

thank you

sean

Cheers guys.

I've finally downloaded the videos of the camera of the babies as they hatch, a day after they hatched and a few days after they hatched.

So....just got to plonk them YouTube.

Hopefully, we will see in a few weeks time what sort of colours are showing.....and it will be at that stage that I'll know if any are worth taking forward into the next stage of breeding.

interesting read Ian looking forward to more

sheag35 wrote:

interesting read Ian looking forward to more

.... and here are a few more (my goodness my laptop too old to handle these movies...so so slow)...anyway

Now....don't remind me of how grotty the outer glass of the tank looks.
The 'scum' inside the tank is because this is very very mature water with added peat and loads of infusoria culture floating around.

1. The Parents pre-spawning.....and spawning actually occurred a few hours later.


2. The eggs hatching, then father tending them as they hatch, then the fry one day old.
Hatching took about 24 hrs at 80F.

great vids. fair play Ian looking superb

Cheers Guys. Much appreciated.

I must say that between this forum and the posting of the videos on facebook, I have had a few people wanting to get into siamese fish breeding (and some from facebook are not yet fish keepers).

So, it is worth the effort if others wish have a go with, lets face it, a fish that has been a deserving long favourite in fish keeping.

Ian

Really nice, thanks for posting those!

Melander

2 weeks on, and at this stage we can usually start to get an idea if we have a mad mix of colours.....but so far all that I am seeing is blonde fish.
So...that could be very promising even though there is no guarantee at this stage that the offspring are all Platinum Whites (that would be most unusual).


ian

cant wait to see them ian fair play mate

would be great if the where all platinum whites

sean

igmillichip wrote:

2 weeks on, and at this stage we can usually start to get an idea if we have a mad mix of colours.....but so far all that I am seeing is blonde fish.
So...that could be very promising even though there is no guarantee at this stage that the offspring are all Platinum Whites (that would be most unusual).


ian

either way Ian stunning looking fish, looking forward to updates and more vids

same here! you siad they were a nicely matched pair, are they both definitely platinums Ian then or is the female something different? I could only presume that you will get a small % of platinums in this ix surely if both parents are platinum? although im unsure about genetics for fighters