Platinum White Plakat Fighters. What babies?

Christor wrote:

same here! you siad they were a nicely matched pair, are they both definitely platinums Ian then or is the female something different? I could only presume that you will get a small % of platinums in this ix surely if both parents are platinum? although im unsure about genetics for fighters

These are Platinum Whites, but there is no gene for ‘Platinum White’…..it is purely a Phenotype resulting from a certain combination of a good few forms of different genes.

These are not albino nor are they white. (not white? what does that mean?)

To explain this fully, I’d have to go into the skin structure of the Siamese fighting fish, and into basic genetics….but that takes too much time.

At least five (I think six or seven though) genes are involved in producing the Platinum White (maybe more).
Some forms (alleles) of some of those genes have to be double recessive in the platinum white, some have to be double dominant, but some are partially dominant.

There is, thus, the possibility that what you see (the phenotype) is masking something behind any of the dominant traits. Those masked traits could come through in the offspring.

On top of the structural and pigment colours is an opaque white covering.

The key in this are the structural colours (ie colours that do not actually exist but are ‘illusions’).

In Platinum Whites there is a special (quite unusual) structural colour that reflects light in the yellow or yellow/green region (I have a photo taken at an angle that shows this).
This is a form of masking and can lead to some interesting offspring showing differing types of metallic spread or scaling and masking.
That is also mixed with the iridescent blue structural colours (as recessive steel blues in platinum whites) and made a bit more complex by the way in which the metallic colouration spreads.

The Platinum whites have a Steel Blue blue colouration caused by 2 copies of the ‘bl’ allele (a form of the gene). That means that if both parents have the steel-blue trait then all offspring will have that trait.

But, the Platinum White is also double dominant in the way the metallic is spread….that means that basic steel blue body colour is copper in appearance.
If the metallic spread where no double dominant then the steel blue would appear ‘steel blue’.

I’ll stop there (for now anyway), as it is clear that the genetics are quite complex and subtle.

Ian

A lot to take in but still very informative Ian

Any updates o how the fry are getting along?

Christor wrote:

A lot to take in but still very informative Ian

Any updates o how the fry are getting along?

It is quite complex, and I have to stop and think quite often.

The fry are getting along quite nicely. I am not seeing much variation in colour within the babies.

One specimen, as usual, has grown to be boss of tank.

I am now seeing a very fine and even pale turquoise over all parts of the body on all fish that are now perfect little miniature bettas. That is a good sign as it means that the colour is probably likely to turn out as steel blue with a complete metallic spread (=copper).
Now, I just have to wait to see how many produce that all important opaque white outer colouration as they grow.

ian

Ian - don't forget the "breeders team" @ the March table show !!!!

March 2012 ITFS Table Show & meeting

A bit of an update, but a few weeks out of date really.

Here are the young taken a few weeks ago.

All are showing a good homology. I've noticed one or two interesting oddities in a group of otherwise almost 100% the same colour type.

There is one fish (on this pic just immediately down from the centre of my thumbnail) who has red in the fins.

There is one or 2 that have white eyes (not albino though). One is shown to the left of the fish with red fins.

Sizewise, these are all growing as expected and as 2 size groups. The smaller size are the normal growth rate fish; the bigger ones are the ones who developed slightly earlier and were able to take brine shrimp and larger food much earlier.

In them we already have the dominant alpha male......his development was much more rapid that I'd seen with other broods of fighters.

When looking more closely at these young, some have a much more pronounced up-turned mouth......that could indicate high aggression and is closer to the wild siamese fighting (or the type bred in thailand for fighting).

The extended metallic is showing the spread....but it will look blue rather than copper (as is the complexity of siamese fighter colours).
That is a good start for Platinum's.

The next colour phase that I am hoping for is the expression of the opaque genes to then cover over the metallic so that the fish appear white.
But.....at this stage, that is where the fun starts as breeding a line is still all about 'semi-random' selection.

At this stage of development, the growth will double in size every 2 weeks for the next month and then start to slow down.



ian

They look absolutlly stunning

congratz ian

Mine hatched 30 odd hours ago, so far i count arround 30 to 40 fry looking like these





I will be interested in a couple from you (white platinum)

Forgot about this thread, very informative!

For someone who does not have great experience with bettas they look very impressive.

Thanks for sharing the pictures and the information, I have a feeling this thread will be useful for fish breeding in general, not only fighters.

Melander

btw Ian,

When do you think they are ready to GO

I'm interested in a couple...

Youve been slipping up Ian! that and I forgot, anyway, these babies are bound to be fully grown and no doubt bred again, have you any photos or a description at least on how they turned out?

Christor wrote:

Youve been slipping up Ian! that and I forgot, anyway, these babies are bound to be fully grown and no doubt bred again, have you any photos or a description at least on how they turned out?

Whoops.

This is still an on-going project.
I had given quite a few away to people (but I told them that they are not getting the best quality ones as I need them).

There was a group of these that I had actually given a big "no" and so they went and some went into Justine's tanks.......but they have actually turned out to be stunners. The reason I gave them away was because they were light metallic blue (and that is not what I want).

I'm keen to stabiise the opaque gene and not try to make sure that any fin problems are bred out.

I was going to enter a more recent spawning in the ITFS show.......but didn't as that would have been too much work on y already heavy schedule that weekend.

ian

JohnH wrote:

Aha,
So now I know - I got the rejects!!!

You soon learn to know who your friends are in this world!!!

Anyway, I like my light metallic blue male (even though he has turned his wife into an ex-Plakat!).

John

It's a Dog Eat Dog world........and I can't be having any more people beating me at shows with fish I bred.

But more seriously, the rejects are just colours I didn't want. But I also gave away other 'rejects' and I see they turned to be stunning fish.
That is one problem of trying to judge what you have when the fish are too young.......but if you leave these too late to breed then they are past it.

Anyway, JohnH, if you're up in Dublin next week for the ITFS then I can net out a few females from a more recent spawning.

Ian

I got some of the first batch from Ian and most of them turned into stunners I think I even won a prize with a female at a show
John

Nice to hear they are turning out as you would like Ian! has anybody got any pictures?