dropsy

Does anybody know the best treatment for dropsy. I have a guppy with a really bloated belly. It is still swimming round the tank (now in QT tank). The scales do not seem to be sticking out. Have heard to treat with epsom salts, some say add to the tank others say to give an epsom salt bath, what is the correct dose to give. It is in a 20L QT tank now.

Aoife

From what I've read an epsom salt bath is best and chances are that antibiotics will also be needed. Also there's not a very high survival rate from dropsy so be prepared for the worst! Once the scales start sticking out the condition has gone too far to cure it. I'm no expert, just an avid reader, so any other suggestions anyone?

Really hope your guppy get's better! Best of luck!

Aims

are you sure that its not just pregnant?

Am 100% sure its not pregnant, have started with antibiotics, and also gave it an epsom salt bath earlier (thanks Aims!). I know the survival rate is very small, but will try anything to give it a chance. Will give another salt bath tomorrow night to try and reduce the pressure of the swollen abdomen.

I hope its not dropsy,but if there is redness and swelling,then its likely to be dropsy,view it from above,its is got a pinecone effect of protruding scales then Im afraid it wont survive.Ive never had a fish survive from dropsy.Id be interested to know if others have had better luck? Also Ive found that guppys are the fish that get it most often also.

Gavin

I don't think there's anyway of fully curing it unless you know exactly what caused it, and there are a numerous amount of causes. Although it is well worth your while finding the cause even if the fish doesn't survive to ensure other fish don't get sick! Have heard that if you catch it very early on it can be cured but otherwise there's a very slim chance. if the scales start to protrude I'd say you'd do best to euthanize the fish. Anyway let us know how you get on and again - Good Luck!

Aims

Thank God all the other fish are fine. I will take a proper look at her later when i get home, but I dont think the scales are protruding yet. Will do another salt bath tonight.

Had a proper look at the guppy, there are no scales sticking out, there is no redness at all, the swelling is like a balloon of clear fluid. Just gave her another salt bath, and a very small amount of food.

Any chance of getting a photo up of the fish? This mightn't be dropsy, but don't take my word, as I said I am far from an expert and only know what I've read, have no experience with fish disease. Are you sure it's not constipation?
If you could get a photo up it would be great.

Also, if you could put up details of water conditions it would be great. Have found on this forum they like all the details before lashing out the advice! (Which is fair enough)

is it like this badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/unkn...ehartleyacmepet.html

tried to post a pic, file too big, will try again

have pics on my phone but they are too large to upload

If you send them to one of the admins or mods they should be able to put them up for you. Is at anything like what posted? Be great if you could give some details of the fish's behavior as well.

are you using photobucket?

Taking picture via my iphone and using iphoto. Will email them to admin tonight when I get home and hopefully they will be able to post them . Guppy is swimming around the tank normally, gave a little food last night, but she didnt eat much, there doesnt appear to be any discolouration where she is swollen, as said before it is like a stretched balloon full of fluid.

Dar, the swelling isnt exactly like the picture you posted. Will post a pic tonight, who can I email it to?

When I couldn't post them I sent them to JohnH but any of the mods will do it for you. Or you could do what dar suggested and upload them onto a site like photobucket and post the link here.

i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx14/aoifetansey/IMG_0436.jpg

i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx14/aoifetansey/IMG_0433.jpg

These are the pictures of the guppy

i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx14/aoifetansey/IMG_0435.jpg


The pics are not very clear, so these are the best ones

Yet again, I'm no expert but that does look like dropsy to me. Do you check your water parameters when the fish got sick? Might give you some ideas of the cause. If the fish is still swimming around fine and the scales aren't sticking out it's not gone too far just yet. I'd say keep up the treatment and keep a close eye on her. Any second opinions anyone?

I have never had any fish with dropsy myself but I looked up a book I have on fish diseases and it says it is not possible to tell the cause of dropsy on external signs alone. The best policy is to assume it is a bacterial infection and treat accordingly in the hope of effecting a cure. It also says that by the time external symptoms show the fish will already be very sick and survival chances as very low.
Due to this do you think it may be better to euthanise the fish to avoid prolonging the discomfort?
As you said yourself the fish is not pregnant.

i would have to agree with wolfsberg, it does not look good.. could well be an internal problem.

It also says that by the time external symptoms show the fish will already be very sick and survival chances as very low.
Due to this do you think it may be better to euthanise the fish to avoid prolonging the discomfort?

Some reading I've done says there is a small chance of curing before scales start to protrude. Personally, if the fish was still swimming around normally with no problems I'd hold on a couple of days but as soon as there's a sign of things getting worse I'd probably euthanize the fish. But it really is up to yourself.

it is not possible to tell the cause of dropsy on external signs alone. The best policy is to assume it is a bacterial infection and treat accordingly in the hope of effecting a cure.

If the cause is bacterial infection (which is the most likely cause) it would be a good idea to check your water parameters for the sake of the other fish. They're not all going to get dropsy but they could get an external infection. Then again your water may be fine, the guppy could have been carrying the infection and stress from something else could have set it off.

Hi Aims, as I already said, I was quoting from a book, not giving my opinion, apart from asking aoife would she consider ending the fish's suffering. It goes without saying that water should be tested periodically.
Sometimes we need to "play God" and weigh up the suffering of the fish vs the chances of it make a recovery... it's a toughy but we have to do it.

Hi Aims, as I already said, I was quoting from a book, not giving my opinion, apart from asking aoife would she consider ending the fish's suffering. It goes without saying that water should be tested periodically.

I wasn't contradicting you! Only taking my info from reading as well. I suppose the point I'm making is that if the fish doesn't seem to be in too much discomfort it's worth giving treatment a try but not to hang too much hope on. If the fish seems to be getting worse though there's very little point in continuing treatment. I also meant to say that I remember reading somewhere else that in the few cases that are cured the dropsy often comes back with a vengeance. There's often a lot of damage done to internal organs that recur with any stress. But not always the case! As I said it's really up to you Aoife what you want to do.

No hassle!

Well I am going to continue with the treatment for another few days. There is no risk at all to my other fish as she was never in contact with them. I acquired the guppy from someone who didn't know how to care for fish and didn't care what happened to it. I had to at least try and give her a chance. So because I got her with the swollen abdomen the cause of it is anybody guess. At the moment she is in a salt bath and has passed some poops ( first time since Thursday when I got her), she is still happy to swim all around the tank and as of yet the scales are not protruding. Thank you for all your help, will keep ye posted

Fair play to ya. Hope she pulls through for you. Best of luck!

Aims

Hi Aoife and all,

it would be good to know if this is really dropsy, and if so then it would be good to know what type of disease there is.....dropsy itself isn't really a disease, it is a symptom of some undelying problem.

Kidney damage is one aspect of problem underlying dropsy.
Poor diet (eg high protein content), incorrect pH, salt and other dissolved electrolytes can damage a kidney. Internal ammonia poisoning (usually from incorrect pH or high external ammonia) will do no favours to the kidney.

As for bacteria being a cause of dropsy......there are a number of bacteria that have been cited as either causal agents or agents that aggrevate or primary infections that reduce the resistence of the fish to secondary infections.

Myxosporidian cycts may be found in the kidney....but it may well be that the real killer is an infection (possibly due to reduced resistence) by either Aeromonas and Pseudomonas bacteria.

Aeromonas hydrophila is of particular concern to us frog keepers as it can wipe our collections out pretty quickly.

Now, if there is Aeromonas infection then that is quite a serious indicator of poor water.
They are anaerobic.....and love water with a high organic content (a pleasat word for filthy water).
So, an increase in oxygen and reduction in organic waste is vital to keep these bacteria at bay.

I may have been mis-reading one post I saw here, but I did see the word 'antibiotics'.
I'm a little concerned about the use of antibiotics for a number of reasons.
If antibiotics are used then they will be of no use if they are only effective against gram-positive bacteria: Aeromonas is gram-negative.
I know of some commonly used antibiotics that are effective against these gram-negative bacteria....but certain ones also cause kidney damage (and that is probably not of any use in a fish with a compromised kidney in the first place).

You may find that the fish does not actually have a bacterial infection, in which case Epsom salts would come pretty close to a 'good attempt'.....the reason Epsom salts may help to some degree may be mainly due to the fact that in adding Epsom salts you're adding additional electrolytes to aid kidney function and ammonia problems. Some crushed coral gravel would also not go amiss here.

The harsh reality is that if the fish has a bacterial infection causing the dropsy or has any kidney damage then the prognosis is pretty poor.

ian