Mixing Rock.

I might start up a Marine tank after my Holidays.
I have niticed theprice of the live rock and it is astronomical. Can you mix it will porous Volcanic rock and will the volconia rock become seeded with bacteria like the live rock.

I have loads of this rock in my shed.

Anto

You can start a Marine setup without Live rock. Although Live rock is a natural biological purification of water so is a good external filter. It really depends also on what you intend to keep in the aquarium. I have a DVD called moving into Marines Ill bring it with me to the meeting.

Regards Paul

The concerns i have of a beginner using live rock is he or she is bound to get white spot (odiuium or similar) the meds kill the inverts on the rock, so basically its better volcanic rock and just add one little live rock to seed the hole thing with the right spores of bacteria marine algae etc etc, as they will take the meds, to put it into perspective you could almost buy a piece of live rock and ask if you are not happy can you bring it back with 48 hours and then retun it and you have seeded the tank with hundreds of strains of "THINGS" that other wise the tank would of never had.

Thanks for that lads.
Is using a filter dangerous for Marines becasue of the nitrates.
Does a skimmer remove nitrates.

Thanks for that lads.
Is using a filter dangerous for Marines becasue of the nitrates.
Does a skimmer remove nitrates.

Th erotically if a skimmer removes organics its will be indirectly removing nitrate, but not in a biological way but more in a pre mechanical way which would of otherwise be broken down to nitrate in a biological way.

The other qes is a filter dangerous for a marine aquarium, I could answer that but would like Lampeye and others members answer it as it will make an more interesting thread, as its up to debate, at least in a mainly invert tank, if Anto is going fish only well lets hear different view points.....

"Anthony" wrote:

Thanks for that lads.
Is using a filter dangerous for Marines becasue of the nitrates.
quote]

anto,
nitrates are only really a problem for inverts, unless they are really high. im sure high nitrates give you unsightly algae aswell . these are the reasons people tend not to want to use trckle filters/canisters. have a look at this thread. there is a detailed dicussion on it . www.irishfishkeepers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=740

live rock is amazing looking and while its expensive, im really glad i got it. my nitrates are still at zero. and all my live rock is completely covered in coraline and other macro (the good type). my fish stocking is still low but there is plenty to look at. sean has mentioned that the captive life of marine fish is much longer with live rock. just make sure you qt everything and research your fish wish list well for compatibily. patience is prob the most important thing in marine imo.

what some people do is use ocean rock as a base and then stack their lr on top. let me know if if you want to drop down and see my system. it might keep u from going to the darkside

Lampeye I see your point, the proof in the pudding. You probally have a nice looking tank, despite low stocking, mine 2 foot breeding pair of clowns have med live rock with 3 inch long algae which left more than one month would completely take over the tank, the tank looks neglected, and I am thinking of set it up your way as an experiment, the fish however are fine well they a spawning with zero nitrate and as you know no water changes for 3 and half years, but what is your filter, and what do you do if you have to treat fro disease? surely some of the inverts living deep in the live rock would not be able to handle a load of copper thrown at them?

Both points very valuable.
I would love to see you system Lampeye.
I won`t be rushing in to this head first.
My plan is to use the ocean rick as the base and build around it.
Can I get away without a filter( have not looked at Lampeyes link yet.)
I want live rock. A Skimmer and a few power heads. Is it good to have a small filter to help remove mechanical waste. I can ash it out under the tap every week.

what is your filter ?

as mentioned in previous posts jack i rely on live rock for biological filtration. for mechanical filtration i run carbon 24/7. 2 bags, i change one every week, and a protein skimmer. thats it.

and what do you do if you have to treat fro disease? surely some of the inverts living deep in the live rock would not be able to handle a load of copper thrown at them?

prevention is better than cure!
i qt every purchase for four weeks before placing them in the main system. i leave a small sponge in with the carbon filter of the main system which i replace each time i take one out for qt.
i give a varied, vitamin and garlic enriched diet

and if i do get a disease , which happened with one of my clowns i didnt qt at first, i remove the fish to a qt tank (using the seeded sponge that was in with the carbon) and treat there. any copper/meds will kill the live rock. if u failed to qt new arrivals and got a huge outbreak of something you wold have to remove all fish nto qt , treat there , and leave the main tank fallow for 8 weeks i think, a practice that would surely break your heart!

again, prevention better than cure. it is a bit of a pain cleaning out qt tank after each new fish and waitnig so long between buying fish but at least u have peace of mind, sort of!

why do fish get sick in the first place?, usually water quality , diet , transport, temperature swings, or agression. so in addressing all of these issues and saying a few hail marys youd prob avoid any disease.

1. water quality - regular water changes with aged water of correct salinity. use of skimmer and carbon. ample live rock
2. diet. self explanaorty
3. transport- 4 weeks qt (i admit i usally just do 2 if alls well) to give the new arrival a chance to rest/fatten up etc
4. temperature swings- a watchfull eye
5. agression- research what fish goes well with what, are they agro to their own kind, NOT over stocking etc.

i am by no means very experienced with marines, this is just my understanding of them from observation, books, and the internet.

discuss!

Both points very valuable.
I would love to see you system Lampeye.
I won`t be rushing in to this head first.
My plan is to use the ocean rick as the base and build around it.
Can I get away without a filter( have not looked at Lampeyes link yet.)
I want live rock. A Skimmer and a few power heads. Is it good to have a small filter to help remove mechanical waste. I can ash it out under the tap every week.

call down any evening anthony. if you use the live rock as your filter, i think the rule of thumb is between 1-2 lbs per gallon. if u decide to run carbon in an internal/external filter this will trap some dirt. just make sure u change it regularly so it doesnt start acting like a bio filter aswell.
i ve fund marines seem to be a lot cleaner than fresh water fish for some reason. also inverts like cleaner shrimp, turbo snails and hermit carbs eat detritus aswell as micro algae (the bad type), so they are known as the "clean up crew"
no need fro pre filter.

Give me a time for thursday and I will drop down if that suits you.

anytime after 8, bring chris if he wants

anytime after 8, bring chris if he wants

Thanks Fran,

Am I generally percieved as Anthonys helper monkey

lol. not at all, anto's just a lot to take on his own!

lol. not at all, anto's just a lot to take on his own!

Well I never.
Ok I will bring Robin the boy wonder with me. Pm me your number.

what is your filter ?

as mentioned in previous posts jack i rely on live rock for biological filtration. for mechanical filtration i run carbon 24/7. 2 bags, i change one every week, and a protein skimmer. thats it.

and what do you do if you have to treat fro disease? surely some of the inverts living deep in the live rock would not be able to handle a load of copper thrown at them?

prevention is better than cure!
i qt every purchase for four weeks before placing them in the main system. i leave a small sponge in with the carbon filter of the main system which i replace each time i take one out for qt.
i give a varied, vitamin and garlic enriched diet

and if i do get a disease , which happened with one of my clowns i didnt qt at first, i remove the fish to a qt tank (using the seeded sponge that was in with the carbon) and treat there. any copper/meds will kill the live rock. if u failed to qt new arrivals and got a huge outbreak of something you wold have to remove all fish nto qt , treat there , and leave the main tank fallow for 8 weeks i think, a practice that would surely break your heart!

again, prevention better than cure. it is a bit of a pain cleaning out qt tank after each new fish and waitnig so long between buying fish but at least u have peace of mind, sort of!

why do fish get sick in the first place?, usually water quality , diet , transport, temperature swings, or agression. so in addressing all of these issues and saying a few hail marys youd prob avoid any disease.

1. water quality - regular water changes with aged water of correct salinity. use of skimmer and carbon. ample live rock
2. diet. self explanaorty
3. transport- 4 weeks qt (i admit i usally just do 2 if alls well) to give the new arrival a chance to rest/fatten up etc
4. temperature swings- a watchfull eye
5. agression- research what fish goes well with what, are they agro to their own kind, NOT over stocking etc.

i am by no means very experienced with marines, this is just my understanding of them from observation, books, and the internet.

discuss!

If you want a invert tank with a sprinkling of fish to give some movement I sort of agree with you, as a fish only tank has more colour movement going on and since thats more than likely what Anto wants, I would not advise, what you have post. Graham Lundagard did an experiment using this system in 1983 of Practical Fish keeping and he had limit success and said it only work with a lot of live rock and very very few fish. Besides if one has to have a quarantine tank and all that care I would rather go back to keeping Discus.
The way I keep Marines is very much less work than keeping Discus, but your approach involves a lot of husbandry, in fact it even sound like more husbandry than doing loads of water changes in a Discus tank.

For me a fish only system with a Tunze filter with just inert volcanic rock, is as clever as is convenient every time you add fish keep a 50% dose of white spot treatment (which has malachite green if you use Sera costapur, once you are up to final fish only stocking, run it with a poly filter then add real live rock laid over the volanci base rock.
The only problem with this is you will get bored because there is nothing to do.

Daily 3 dried food added daily
Every 3 days add a top up of fresh water due to evaporation
Weekly add some frozen shrimp or gel mix or some commercial available frozen food to balance there diet.
Monthly, clean the prefilter and check there is a very slow flow but not bunged up flow to the trickle filter.
Every 3 months Check pH and nitrate (If below 8.2pH or more than 80ppm Nitrate do a water change)

Use the free time you have saved compared to normal husbandry to post abusive jokes about discus colours and read all the dirty jokes in social and rubbish. :twisted:

jack,
while your post is funny, i dont think its good advice. in fact i think you are an extremely lazy fish keeper (which u prob take as a compliment!) . and im sure your fish would be a lot happier were your husbandry up to scratch. people use this website mostly to understand the correct husbandry of fish, and i think its really bad advice to say ,check every 3 months to see if u need a water change. especially seen as you admit u have probs with nuissance algae etc.

i dont doubt your vast knowledge and experience in fish keeping, i just think its dangerous to advise new marine keepers in the ways of trying to do as little as possible. surely they want to know how they can keep their system in the healthiest condition possible. this is a bit sidetracked from the trickle vs live rock subject but it seems from your posts that your main reason for recommending the trickle is for the lack of husbandry it requires. (correct me if im wrong)

i may be a little extreme with my maintanace but u are the complete opposite!! here is my maintance list which should give u a laugh.

daily - (3 feeds)
2 dried granule (one soaked in garlic)
1 mysis or bs soaked in multi vitamin

weekly
- test water (ph, kh, nitrate mainly)
- test salinity
- change 1 bag of carbon
- clean skimmer and powerheads
- clean glass (this is what takes the longest)
- top up water lost to evaporation (not much as its a closed top)
- change 10% of water (on a 240 litre tank this is just 1 large bucket ...really easy and fast)
- wipe down lights and hood

monthly
- clean live rock with small p head
- check and wipe clean electrical wires
- keep a log

i religiously do this every week and this results speak for themselves. the tank is spotless, the fish/inverets are happy, i have no nusiance algae, and the nitrates are at zero.

this takes at the very most 2 hours a week.

please dont take this as an attack on you as a person, but as a fish keeper i feel your hearts not really in it! and the bare minimum isnt really good advice for new comers.

rant over!!! :roll: [/i]

- clean live rock with small p head

I'm finding this topic fascinating as i know very little re: Marine systems but would love to set up a tank. Lampeye, could you explain what you mean by above quote,

Cheers Peter

the cavities in live rock can get clogged up with detritus so its important to either siphon it out using the hose part of a gravel cleaner when doing weekly water changes or ocassionally blast it out with a small (not too powerfull) powerhead.

Aaahhh the penny drops!

Cheers for the info, Interesting comments about the use/non-use of a filter and live rock seeding other types of porous rock.

How much live rock would be needed for a 300ltr tank?? (in lbs and euro!!!!!)

probably about 80 lbs which would cost , depending on which shop , and your bargaining skills, between 600 and 800 squid. youd prob get away with less rock....but the more the better.

jack,
while your post is funny, i dont think its good advice. in fact i think you are an extremely lazy fish keeper (which u prob take as a compliment!) . and im sure your fish would be a lot happier were your husbandry up to scratch. please dont take this as an attack on you as a person, but as a fish keeper i feel your hearts not really in it! and the bare minimum isnt really good advice for new comers.

rant over!!! :roll: [/i]

Lampeye dont fell bad, I always find your post non threatening and non aggressive unlike some others so you dont have to apologise.
The last water change I did was just before I collected my own live rock in Majorca which would of been about February 2004, and yes I do have an algae problem, well not really as I want the algae long enough to trick the anemone fish into thinking they are tentacles as there is no anemone in the tank. ph now is 8.3 and nitrate is 0.0ppm (the de nirating filter cancels the natural pH drop)

The proof in in the pudding the fish spawn every 2 weeks, just to get some credibility I will email Anthony a low mega pixel photo of them with the eggs next month, but since it could be taken from any where in the world and not my tank!!! I will take the picture with my hand in the tank, how many fingers do you want me to put up? I guess 2 is rude so make a vote of how many fingers are up, or other object beside the eggs, I take a photo, and I send it to Anto as I still dont know how to up load it.
or may be I will do an Holger and destroy the evidence by killing them of with an water change? so I have an alabai not to post photos:lol:

What maintenance you do is horrify! Do the fish and inverts breed in the tank with all this optimum conditions? Can you hold the hand on your heart and say some of the longer term invert have live more than 5 years especially clams etc.

I am on holiday for the next 10 days but the hotel has Wi Fi in the reception hall , which could be dangerous as its an all you can eat and drink place so hopefully the moderators are working 24/7 :twisted:

[/quote]
I am on holiday for the next 10 days but the hotel has Wi Fi in the reception hall , which could be dangerous as its an all you can eat and drink place so hopefully the moderators are working 24/7 :twisted:[/quote]

Are you serious.
The moderators here are the laziest bunch of useless wasters that God ever gave breath to. They do absolutely nothing in regards to protecting the forum or editing out smut.
I would sack them all only I don`t pay them.

do you bother your arse raisning the young?

Do the fish and inverts breed in the tank with all this optimum conditions? Can you hold the hand on your heart and say some of the longer term invert have live more than 5 years especially clams etc.

i only have easy inverts ie. cleaner shrimp which always have eggs, snails, crabs, feather duster (i dose the tank with phytoplankton), mushroom corals which breed/multiply like crazy, and a little organge sea star (impulse buy) that seems to be thriving, but no one seems to know exactly what they eat...so i did sort of regret that purchase.

i initially wanted an anemone but after reading about their poor survival rate in aquaria i decided against it. the only fish i have male+female are the clowns and they are too young to spawn yet.

enjoy your holidays...at least you wont miss any water change days!