fish out of water!

Hi there
I'm looking to set up a marine tank, Was on family holiday in spain lately and went to an aquarium in benalmadena and the kids loved it and so a dream was born!!!no real previous experiance with fish except for donkey fords (local fish and chip shop!)But totally smitten with the thoughts of my own little slice of ocean reef with all manner of exotic fish and corals tucked away in the sitting room and amazing anyone who got too close with the beauty of it all and with my amazing depth of knowledge all things aquatic!! Ahem.
Thats the dream the grim reality is that the more i look into this the the more expensive it seems to be getting, i'm getting more and more nervous turning each page of my nano reef book as the cost of getting into this is spiralling out of control!
Actually its not the tanks that are expensive but live rock is vastly expensive at least around here 25 or 26 euro a kilo, is that normal??
If any one with marine experiance reads this and can point me in the right direction equipment wise so i can get up and cycling that would be great all i have bought so far is i think its cs brightwells book on nano reefs which i think is a bit sketchy on details in setting up your tank
one last Question what is required to convert a normal tropical tank to marine standard it's just that the missus didnt like the nano cube look and would prefer a rectangular style tank one more thing..the water...do i really need a ro/di filter
Ok sorry for going off on a bit of a rant there! I would really appreciate any and all advice thanks again and may i say this is really a rather good site!!!!

Hi fergal38, that is something I would love to do in the future. I have kept goldfish all my life but at the moment I have a community tropical since Jan of this year. It just might be an idea to go down this route before keeping marines. I wanted to start with marines but was warned by others to start smaller, less expensive to get a feel for fish keeping and the problems that can be encountered without loosing hundreds of euro. With the problems I have encountered with the tank it was really worth while as it will prevent me making the same mistakes again when I get my dream tank!!

I am not trying to put you off but do wheigh up the pros and cons before making a decision!!

Thanks nonie
Thats actually very good advice, but if i know me and i think i do, i'll probably totally ignore that and do what i want anyway!!!!hehe!!!
No but seriously i will research this very carefully before i dive in(no the tank wont be that big:lol: ) i dont want to be a mass murderer of expensive fish and corals!!
thanks again!

No worries, just thiught it was worth mentioning!!! Best of luck with the project and keep us posted on the progress!!

Hi Nonie

you are right with the advice but i have my heart set on a marine setup so i'll keep looking into it and see what happens!
thanks

Fergal,

You should set up a blog and record what you are doing. It will give ppl like myself a great help in the future!! when I hear ppl talking bout marines it just sounds so complicated with sumps calcium etc. I reckon it would take alot of research into it before aquiring a tank.

As far as I know tropical tanks that are bought for marines would have to be drilled as opposed to a marine tank which is good to go! I could be wrong on this but others that are experienced will be able to guide you!

Hi Fergal38,

I am a freshwater keeper so can't really help you on the marine side of things ... I am sure someone will be on later to give you some further advice.
I just wanted to wish you welcome to the forum and the very best of luck with your new venture. I think we all started like that ... oh, nothing big ... just a tank ... but, believe me, for most of us, it hasn't worked ... this hobby is addictive !

If you have any questions (other than the ones above), don't hesitate - someone will be able to help you !

Valerie

Welcome to the forum Fergal

Have a look here full setup for sale and in limerick too www.irishfishkeepers.com/cms/component/o...w/catid,34/id,41250/

(Donkey fords Mmmmm )

Limerick Bandit

Fergal,

Like you I took a long hard look at establishing my first marine tank bearing in mind I have been keeping freshwater fish for about 8 years or so. I did a heck of a lot of research and bought a number of books, joined a number of forums and spoke at length to a number of maring specific LFS people. The sum of my investigations led me to decide not to persue the Marine tank at the moment because my 5 foot tank would have cost a small fortune to set up because of its size. However I'm buying bits and pieces as the cash comes along so that just before go live I'll have everything except the live rock.

That said there are a few definates in marine keeping:

1) You have to use R/O (reverse osmosis) water to mix the salt and fill the tank. Ordinary tap water has too much heavy metals and naturally occurring nitrate/phosphate. You can get R/O water from a LFS and the cost will vary, alternatively you can get a RO unit which will do the purification for you but they are expensive initially but will save you in the long run.

2) Your need for liverock or not will depend on what type of set up you want, fish only (fo), fish only with live rock (fowlr), reef with hard corals or soft corals and associated fish. Each set up will have its own issues, i.e. lighting intensity (t8, t5, halogens), will filtration be done using a sump, magic mud, live sand, trickle filtration.

3) Then there is specialised equipment like refrugiums, wave generators, hydrometers, chemical additives, the requirement for which will depend on the tank size you want and the set up (fowler etc).

4) Then there is the research for the stocking you want, i.e. will fish eat corals, will corals eat corals, inverts, clean up crew and finally the fish themselves.

I hope this gives you an idea of what you are facing into as it needs to be planned carefully and approached slowly. The website below I find very useful , as well as the following books:

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert M. Fenner

The New Marine Aquarium by Michael Paletta

www.reefsuk.org/forum/index.php

In a way people here will probably give out to me for intimidating you, and they may be right. However you are approaching it the right way, it is an expensive hobby and all the more so if you make a mess of it by not researching it fully before you start.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

I gave myself the target of 18 months
of running a Tropical tank correctly
before I'll dive into Marines.

I'd definetely say buy an existing setup
as some of them come with €1,000 worth of
live rock along with the tank & all accessories
for the total sum of €1,000 etc. Save ya taking
a massive hit if you decide its not for you
at a later date.

I'd buy a 2nd hand setup up deffo even fishless
and start adding slowly concentrating on the correct
running of the Marine enviroment.

Best resource is at your fingertips.
The Internet its all on here, read everything

Hi Everybody
And thanks for the great responses!!!
I hope nobody gives out about the level of detail in zebadee73'S post because it it actually bang on and does give a fair reflection of what is involved...quite a challenge!!!
so dont be expecting pics of a marine tank from me for a while yet!!! I have no problem in getting all the bits and pieces that i need over an extended period of time all the while learning a bit as i go on, it will make the tank all the more enjoyable when i do get it up and running!!!
thanks also limerick bandit (donkeys rules and i have the gut to prove it:) ) nonie and valerie and loggser its great to get so many responsesB) !!
Will keep you all up to date with any progress, even though i have a feeling that i will end up with a rather modest tank but you never know!!
Ferg

Hi fergal32

Just started a tropical tank last month myself with the plan to go marine once i have the experience and knowledge built up. Have to agree the marine tanks are mind blowing and it is killing me to go for a tropical setup over a marine setup but as you have seen by the thread, marine tanks are the creme del la monde ( as delboy would say )of fish keeping.

Wish you all the best on your journey bud, best of luck

gerryberry:woohoo:

fergal38 wrote:

Hi thereI'm looking to set up a marine tank one last Question what is required to convert a normal tropical tank to marine standard it's just that the missus didn't like the nano cube look and would prefer a rectangular style tank one more thing..the water...do i really need a ro/di filter sorry for going off on a bit of a rant there! I would really appreciate any and all advice thanks again and may i say this is really a rather good site!!!!

Hi Fergal,starting with freshwater before Saltwater is like the Space shuttle re entering the earths atmosphere, the angel of re entry is critical, the ideal angel is a keen 18 month F/W keeper, less than 6 months and the angle is too shallow and you will just bonce of the atmosphere, if you keeps freshwater more than 3 years you will re enter at too steep an angle and burn up.  If you start to specialize with C02 bottles for freshwater weeds of catfish (brown fish that live on the bottom that look far  less exotic than a brown trout), you will loose the sense of the attraction of extremely colourful fish, then you will get more involved in breeding them so instead of having one tank that is a 8 out of 10 you will have blooming loads of tanks that are marked 3 out of 10 with sponge filters and poorly lite shallow long tanks with not much dept from back to front, freshwater keepers love stick on picture back drops, and pea gravel, all this will be wasted when you convert to marines.

My advise is to buy a 60cm x 60cm x 60cm minimum or a 90cm x 90cm x80 cm maximum tank, lite by metal halide, filtered by eheim pro 3, with volcanic rock and a sprinkling of coral sand, and stock it with Malawi colorful fish after 18 months then convert to marines.

Or buy the same tank and go directly into marines and keep it as "marine fish only...no inverts" stick to damsels, clown fish and angels, stay away from tangs and butterflies. A lot of experience American salt water aquarist I know in back in the States, went directly to marines. I know not one European good marine fish keeper that started with marines after being in freshwater for more than 5 years, as these type of keepers have already started to specials in either cats, africans or Discus.(nothing wrong with that, in fact I believed setting up a Malawi tank to the same spec as a fish only marine tank could be better.

Search your feelings you know its your destiny.

Very interesting post, sean. I am inclined to agree with most of your points re marine v freshwater. Most though not all marine fishkeepers I know, are very different than the typical freshwater keeper and then again coldwater and koi keepers are also very different.

b] Basically koi and marine reefs mean big money, big tanks and ponds and no mistakes allowed.[/

It is easier to simulate river or lake water habitats in a glass box (aquariums) than marine biotopes from the vastness of the oceans.

Having said that, I have been very impressed with the dedication and passion of modern reef keepers and their willingness to spend whatever it takes (time and money) to create and improve the conditions required to be successful.

Hi Again

And thanks for the replies!!! Sean your post was very interesting to say the least!!! with a rather nice picture as well...did you know astronomy is another interest for me so i enjoyed the analogy!!!

anyway i think i will pick up a tl-450 of tl-550 soon, i'm really trying to find out if theres a way of getting out of buying an ro filter, i hate the thought of spending big money on that when i could put it towards a better tank

Any ideas on sourcing cheap tank water??

thanks
Ferg

derek wrote:
It is easier to simulate river or lake water habitats in a glass box (aquariums) than marine biotopes from the vastness of the oceans.

Having said that, I have been very impressed with the dedication and passion of modern reef keepers and their willingness to spend whatever it takes (time and money) to create and improve the conditions required to be successful.[/quote]I agree and disagree in what you say.

Although its more difficult to simulate a mix marine fish and invert system than a freshwater system, if you make direct comparison with fish only marines v freshwater based on personal experience my experience have been going from top easy to bottom difficult.

barbs, danios, cats, koi

clown fish, damsels, lionfish, trigger fish

African cichlid

tetras

marine angles fish

cloan loach gubbies, goldfish(far more disease prone than you think)

Mud skippers chocolate gouramis

Freshwater plants(not java sp or amazon swords)

Black moors, Discus

Butterfly fish, yellow tangs

Pipe fish, Moorish idols


eheim.de/eheim/inhalte/index.jsp?key=liniendetail_27523_ehen the filter ideally with built in thermostat

eheim.de/eheim/inhalte/index.jsp?key=liniendetail_28403_ehen the larger of the 3 tanks if the wife is negative about standard in white, this tank full of damsels and clowns will cost no more than 2 badly put together freshwater disaster 4 foots with sunken boats and sculls and Congo tetras.

eheim.de/eheim/inhalte/index.jsp?key=liniendetail_27801_ehen the idea size

The real diffrence between freshwater and marine fish keepers are most marine keepers are a bit silly about spending money, buying unnessary equiplment are butterfiels and coral is like flush money down the toilet.

Freshwater keepers are quite obviously not interior designers or gardeners that never would dream of have bowling green "stripes" through their velvet lawn, more likely long grass and crisp packets is in order most F/W keepers after 5 years loose the original reason to keep colourful fish, i.e a tropical colourful segment of freshwater exoticism. The temptation to have "one more crappy tank" to breed more brown fish with a dab of blue and a suggestion of red is too tempting, they use the excuse that Oscars or cats have more personality than gaudy marine fish. This is not true marine fish have evolved to keep swimming so they are not scared by passers by, freshwater fish live in more murky water and are not use to so much action so are easier scared and don't show as well, as there is more freshwater fish in a tank this is compensated, as at least some "will be out and about"

edit

Hi Sean
The main point i was trying to get across was the cost (time and money) of keeping certain set ups well. Although i agree with some of your views the list seems far too simplistic.

With the amount of information available on the internet and books, I believe a good and conscientious fishkeeper will make a decent fist of whatever he puts his attention to.

You list catfish and koi as among the easiest to keep; Emperors or Zebras L 046 cost 200+ each to buy and require optimum conditions while decent Koi are the most expensive ornamental fish of all and need a swimming pool size pond and massive filteration. there are even specialist vets called to attend when these guys get ill.

I agree damsels and clowns are more tolerant than most marines but even with these, ph, salinity and temp has to be carefully monitored, not to mention the agression of these species esp in smallish tanks and the cost of salt, meters, skimmers etc.

Goldfish when kept well are happy and hardy pets although moors bubble eyes etc.as manmade fish are indeed delicate and dificult and require heated water etc..

Clown loach when acclimatised are among the hardiest of all fish and some of the tanganyikan species are extremely delicate and really bad travellers. species that require live food are also really tricky to keep.

Anyway i enjoyed reading your post and its a subject worthy of debate.

derek wrote:

Hi Sean
You list catfish and koi as among the easiest to keep; Emperors or Zebras L 046 cost 200+ each to buy and require optimum conditions while decent Koi are the most expensive ornamental fish of all and need a swimming pool size pond and massive filtration. there are even specialist vets called to attend when these guys get ill.

I agree damsels and clowns are more tolerant than most marines but even with these, ph, salinity and temp has to be carefully monitored, not to mention the aggression of these species esp in smallish tanks and the cost of salt, meters, skimmers etc.

Goldfish when kept well are happy and hardy pets although moors bubble eyes etc.as man made fish are indeed delicate and difficult and require heated water etc..

Clown loach when acclimatised are among the hardiest of all fish .

I Derek, I realise there are a few delicate cats but in general a common pleco in a community tank is the last fish to die in a wipe put, Koi are far less disease prone than the common goldfish, I suspect this is due to the bad husbandry in wholesalers and poor pet shops in regard goldfish and then high quality of Koi coming from Israel.

What I am trying to highlight to to author of the thread is damsel fish are far less deasee prone than Clown loach, hence it is possible to by pass freshwater if one set up a non aggressive damsel tank, naturally you would not put to damsel of similar of coloration together, say in a small tank a pair of common clowns, one blue damsel one humbug damsel(black and white fish). No skimmer, no water changes, (40%) every 18 months!!) no Ph testing, just a trickle filter and feed them twice a day and clean the glass twice a week.


The other point I was trying to make is most freshwater set ups are set up really badly, there have been exceptions e.g Chris M Malawi photos were 10 out of 10, the planted tank thread had a great photo shots, its just very hard for a freshwater fish keepers to make the switch over after 5 years, the first 30inch colorful community tank from day one becomes loads of shallow and narrow four foot crappy tanks, with brown fish with a dab of colour, and an eye for a good tank is lost after time.

Okay sean we get the point you think our freshwater tanks are crappy

Each to their own. Freshwater's can be just as colourful if the right effort is put into the tank. Marines are more flambuoyant I agree, but I think its almost a right of passage first for alot of people to get good at freshwater tanks before taking the chance of doing Marines. Other's just perfect the freshwater,and if it isnt broke,then why fix it.
Gavin

LimerickBandit wrote:

Okay sean we get the point you think our freshwater tanks are crappy

Hi Limerick,
please do not take this as a personal attack, your tank has not be reviewed here! Its just a few notes about a World wide problem with freshwater keeping in general. I personally after keeping marines (fish no much inverts)would prefer a well set up Malawi or Tang set up with deep water and well lite, I personnel do not like community South American set set ups, the exception to this is a well planted (show quality planted tank)with cardinal tetras,, but again well lite, possible suspended lighting and deep.

If there are any viewers out there than have long shallow narrow comnunity tanks with poor lighting and inapropate rocks and dieing plants, take this as awake up call not a personel attack.

sean
the modern fishkeeper is in a better position re ease of getting information and hi tech. equipment, but i still feel that good fishkeepers can keep any type of fish well. the deciding factor is how much money and time they are willing to spend on their chosen project.
e.g. large CA cichlids need huge tanks, filters and food portions, heating is expensive esp when large water changes are essential. although the fish themselves are almost bullet proof they are always going to be expensive and dificult to keep because of their sheer bulk.

my list of dificulty based on minimum requirement in cost and time to keep in good condition.

koi.
large marine mixed invert,/fish reef.
tankbuster cichlids and cats.
lg. marine fish set ups
delicate tang. species comm.
mangrove type brackish set ups
keeping to breed rare and delicate species.(L046, altum) spare tanks etc. required for conditioning quarantine etc.
etc. etc.

the one species that i have tried to keep several times and completely failed with, and the hardest to keep alive imo is the elephant nose petersi. i would be interested to hear of others experiences with this species.

Hi Fergal,

I can see how you're drawn to the marine setup. The colours are so vivid and the fish and corals can be spectacular. I'm a freshwater person at the moment and it can be just as expensive as a marine set up if you intend on doing things right.
I can't imagine an RO unit being essential. Safe Start is a product used to make tapwater safe for fish. I would have thought that this would work with marines too as it neutralises heavy metals, chlorine and chloramines in tap water. This might negate the reason for an RO unit.
A marine tank will usually have a sump beneath the main tank which you use to filter the water and do some protein skimming. Some people say you don't need the filter in the sump with a reef setup as the beneficial bacteria grow within the live rock and if you have a powerhead pumping water around your rock then you get enough biological filtration here. Reasearch that a bit more, don't take my word for it.

If I were to start a marine tank (which I will do at some point!) I'd research which fish I want in the tank and which corals. I'd then research how well these fish and corals get on together and maybe change my selection after that.
Once you have your species chosen you'll know roughly what size of tank you'll need ... I believe its one centimeter of fish for every square centimeter of surface space in your tank.

Also, a bigger tank is more forgiving as big mistake has to be made to have dramatic effect. A small mistake in a small tank can be much more drastic.

I'd suggest that you decide what fish you want and get your tank first. Then slowly work at getting the extra things like protein skimmers, RO units etc. Take a few months before you actually put the fish and corals in as this will give you plenty of time to work on getting it set up and learning how everything works. Even do some water changes before you put the fish in so you can find out what method works best for you so you're not fumbling around so much with the fish already in the tank. That will also help you decide how to lay out your tank so that its easier to work with while still being dramatic.

I hope you get some food for thought there.

R

I have kept marines in a 450l tank for over a year and set many a marine tank up for other people. personally I find marines more hassle then they are worth, by hassle I mean expensive and mixing salt is a pain in the backside. I did love the crustacians and eels. Altogether The marines I kept came to an astronomical sum of money which I won't mention here but lets just say I could of bought a car with the same amount!

One thing I will say is that there is a percentage of marine keepers that can be described as having a derogative attitude towards fresh water keepers, I like to call it "marine snobbery", A horrible personality disorder in which the afflicted confuses cost involved with skill required .

I found marines to be about as difficult to keep as say the difficulty involved in handing over a few K for an overgrown, rather saline goldfish bowl. quite difficult especially when one realises they should of went for a nice tropical set up instead.

people say marines are more vibrant in colour then trops. with the exception of a certain amount of cichlids and live bearers this is true. But not everyone needs flamboyant colours to appreciate fish, just like how not everyone feels the need to dress like the artist formally known as prince...

Take my above opinions as tongue in cheek But I really am serious about the following : My main contention with marines is the methods used to breed them and the hacking and destruction of Earths precious reefs.

Not every marine keepers guilty of intellectual snobbery, and not every fresh water keeper is as contentious and opinionated as me. (Maybe i'll become a mellow old marine keeper later in life!) Each to there own and respect to the marine and fresh water fish keepers alike. I've tried them both and I'm found out i'm a fresh water keeper at heart. Although I did go brackish for 6 months untill I had to move home and loved every second of it, I will definitely keep brackish again, Archer fish and scats are great!