Poor quality fish

I have been in a few shops in the last few weeks and the general health of the fish were very poor.
Both Wackers petshops were very poor. Poor Discus and loads
of fish with whitespot and cotton bud like fungus growing
on some of them.
Is there an underlying reason for this.

Its quite simple there has been a big change in water chemistry country wide, the signs have all been there for a number of weeks, plus one has to only look at the amount of rain we have had in the last few months it has been a long time since some reservoirs have been this full. The problem is that water reaching them have the chemicals from the land which have not been removed.

The flow has also, I would guess, effected the lands ability to filter the water passing through it, thus now what we are getting is all of this coming through our taps.

It would be interesting to see what the chemical make-up is now compared to the same period say two years ago.

And you can be sure the EPA and councils won't act till its far too late.

generalising things are we saying its better to use rain water for my tanks now (after filtering(somehow) and testing) just to be on the safe side. i know the smell of clorine(spelling) coming out of my tap some days is like a swimming pool!
matt

At the moment we are dealing with some thing new to us all i would say the water system has been pushed to the limits and beyond. the other side of the coin is air purity has also been contaminated by the increase in the numbers of cars and lorry. thus the rain may have as much if not more in some areas.

i have been looking for a filter that could be connect to the tap and will not effect pH as much i seen one some years ago that had a changeable filter but thus far no joy. going for something like an RO unit well unless your fish really require it is not an option.

the other question is what else is been added to the water E.G aluminium sulphide (rather than ferrous sulphide) plus the usual ammonia, chlorine and what ever gets in through the millions of leaking pipes.

i would say for those of us who can afford it to get a wider range of tests or if you know some one who will test it all the better i would in crease the dosage of water conditioner
extra filter carbon either suspended in the water flow for a few days or if you can add to filter ok

But remember i am no expert there are others who would have more and better ideas

I would agree with Mickey, I think the amount of rain we've had is playing havoc with water parameters. I'm in Donabate and my pH is usually around 7.8/8.0. At the moment, it's closer to 7.4. That's only the pH. It's anyones guess as to what else has changed in the water.

I haven't been in Wacker's recently, but was in Petstop last week. Besides the Marine's it looked pretty good.

Hi Anthony

That is a very bold statement to say they are stocking very poor fish.Even the best get this problem. it is usualy because of a drop in temperature !!! often during transportation that weakens the fish and they usualy go down with white spot.
A different story if they knowingly sell the fish to unsuspecting customers.

HI Russel
I would have to agree on that point too. But in this it is some thing more wide spread. there has been a few post of late about pH. which would also cause stress related problems would you not agree?
Mickey

russell wrote:

Hi Anthony

That is a very bold statement to say they are stocking very poor fish.

I dont agree. If the fish are poorly then they are poorly. Maybe it is the quality of the water that is coming out of the taps at the moment, but surely fish shops have adequate filtration devices to keep the water at its optimum quality.

I was in the shop in question yesterday and I wasn't too happy, nor was I too disappointed either. I've seen worse. The fish looked ok, maybe not as colourful as they usually would be but they were just ok.

I'm back from Aquatic village maybe 1 hour and I have tested the water that came from their tanks, its zero for ammonia and nitrites! So is it the water? (ok so that is a bold statement!!, there are other chemicals and heavy metals that could affect the health of the fish.. but the fish I saw today in Aquatic Village blinded me, they were that colourful and healthy) If the blessington lakes service Dublin and aquatic village are obviously serviced by the same water, then how come there is a big difference?

I dont mean to make it a \"this shop is better than yours\" debate...I'm just mentioning names to make a point. Is it really the water condition?

hi scorphonic,

Could i suggest you look at \"TROPICAL WATER CHEMISTRY \"

THERE ARE SIX TREAD AT A QUICK GLANCE ON THIS.

one in a few months would be normal as this can happen when new filters are in place.

and there is nothing to say the problem start at the source of the water(blessington lakes) there are thousand of miles of pipes in this country and hundreds of variables till you have eliminated all?

As for the shops well i would say again they can not cover all the possible water problems with out adding a pig hike on the cost of fish. Do you want to pay the extra?

We just had the wettest January in something like twenty years that is a problem in itself
thousands of houses added to water system that were build years ago and never meant for the amount of houses there are now. This is only the start, Galway was the first public symptoms of what is in store unless people start to apply the pressure.

You cannot compare something like a slight change in water quality affecting shops to a violent bug that affected people in galway. Rainfall is one thing but I was under the impression the galway incident was down to mixing sewerage and mains water?

how many areas have been flooded lately? And why are fish been used in some places as the first line of defense against water pollution

Dave,

You are right that the outbreak in galway was due to sewage and drinking water mixing. I also read there is cholera in irish water supplies (only non third world country the article said). Do we really trust the irish government to test all water supplies? I'd say they test 50% and probably fix 50% of the ones they test.

I think we are missing the point.The post was poor looking fish & covered in whitespot.. That could be due to as I stated.(importation). If the fish arrives stressed out it will be more suceptable to the slightest variations in transfer from arrival to putting in the Tanks.
Drew would be the fist to admit that A/V has had problems whith fish suffering from white spot. and it takes a lot of work by the staff to bring them round and back to good health.
(Whilst w/ spot is easily controlled it becomes a problem in large outlets, you have to isolate each tank or bank of tanks to stop cross infection)
They can only work with what they recieve!!!! and I am sure that any reputable importer does the same.Dead fish is lost money. More important are the Marines. when you get infections and have a large ammount of capital tied up the losses can be dramatic.
As for Water, yes there can be contamination from the water company, but then you have to look at the broader picture, how many fishkeepers in that area have the same symptons/problems? The picture gets complicated.

I dont really think the problem lies in Irish LFS or their set-ups.All LFS struggle to keep things looking good and display things as best they can.

IMO money is the key factor in seeing poor quality fish.Inevitably the cheaper option wins out every time,its business!Even NASA go with the cheapest sometimes!!

Singapore and Malaysia can reproduce fish at an extremely low cost and sell them for a price that is too good to pass up.Whether Irish LFS know it or not some of their fish are from these Fish Farms which are comparable to Puppy Farms found here in Ireland,which are disgusting as they put profit before quality of life!

Anyway,apparently standards are poor in these Asian farms and diseases are passed on around the world.Irish LFS receive apparently good fish.In some cases it takes a few days or weeks for infections,virus's,bacterial infections and protozoans etc to get a stronghold.After a while some of the weakened fish start to look like crap and die but others remain unharmed.

Some fish who have a strong immune system remain unharmed while those weakened in transport etc die off.I think this is a common story across all LFS in Ireland.I dont mean to single out Asian farms as any exporter can and will have disease but it seems to be an increasing trend that these Asian farms are outputting extremely poor fish!

To finish I think any LFS displaying dead or infected fish is
shooting themselves in the foot.I have seen one really professional shop with sick fish and a simple sign stating \"Fish under treatment\".To me this speaks volumes.No shop or establishment is beyond sick fish but it is how they deal with it that separates them from the rest.

While i agree with everything that has been said, I am not defending or attacking anyone, but of late there has been post that independently would be know real big concern. except of course to the people it happened(no disrespect) but there has been to many, to close together. pH is just one symptom. plus hard to fight diseases appearing. Either the pH problem co inside with the time the company's decided to weaken the strengths of Drugs or there is another patagens or chemical in the mix(Hopefully i am wrong)
maybe i spend to much time on here. but i would rather be wrong than in a few months time looking at an even bigger problem.

on a personal level i see white spot as a symptom in itself there is usually another underlying problem usually stress from traveling or bad water care or quality. so could it not be stress of contaminated water as well something we would not normally check for Russell?

Russell, your right, of course we get problems, any shop who says they dont are lying! But its fish husbandry, correct identification of diseases and correct treatment that keeps things (usually) right! We deal with some of the best suppliers in the world and we generally have few problems apart from delayed flights, then livestock can arrive in poor condition, but if we do it gets sorted and fast before it gets out of control!
Fish are usually stressed in shops, from being chased with a net every few hours or bullying etc. so with their imune systems weakened and left untreated diseases with have a field day!

The most annoying part of this thread was the Naming of the shop. I thought the policy was to promote the good ones. and not shame. I think this thread is getting hi jacked.

Hi Drew

I remember being in A/V when you had a disaster in the Marine section, and was extreemly impressed in the way you and your staff adressed the situation. and I for one appreciate the way you and the staff tackled a very distressing situation. apart from the fish suffering, the cost in hard cash although secondary, must have been heartbreaking.

@ Russell: It is absolutely necessary to promote shops especially those that sell healthy fish. The point of the thread was to question why the fish found in wackers by the original poster were poor! Its a fair question. My main hobby is motorcycling and I can tell you that if the very very best shop in ireland messed up with a bad service or with goods sold, then I'd report it on the net depending on the severity of the situation. This goes for any fish shop, If I went to a shop and saw a variety of fish sick, in different tanks, then I would report it. That is NOT saying that the shop is bad, because as it has been pointed out shops can have their run-ins with the odd infection.

So whats wrong with mentioning names? Are we as hobbiest not interested in knowing where fish are healthy as well as unhealthy? With the good always comes the bad from time to time and so long as the good always overweighs the bad then the \"stature\" of the shop will never be affected to the point it will have to close down.

The most annoying part of this thread was the Naming of the shop

Thats what forums are for,spreading directly related news specific to the topic, in this case fish.

The rules of the forum allow a truthful and accurate account of a shop and the account in question seems consistent with what I have been hearing myself from keepers over the last month in Wackers and many other shops.

Wackers as most will know is a top LFS by anyones standards and Im sure Gavin isnt bothered as they get fabulous recommendations from this forums members,through their own experiences.

I agree with Chris. Opinions are based on the contidtion on the fish at the time the poster visited. I was in Petstop last Wednesday and it looked pretty good. They have problems in the Marine section which they acknowledge, but the tropical section looked good.

Wackers and AV are consistently good from my experience and am therefore prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I am experiencing fluctuations in my water parameters at the moment which I'm sure is causing problems for the LFS. Let's keep this in perspective.

Hi ya'll, I have no problem with someone mentioning our shop saying it has white spot. Currently we have had a problem with one or two species of fish.Any retailer that says they don't is lying. simple fact. I've been in every shop around and have allways seen some sort of sickness in one or two tanks.We quarantine all our stock for two weeks before we sell it and will never,ever knowingly sell a sick fish.If we do and someone looses a fish we will try our best to sort them out with replacement fish.I don't see threads on all the hundreds off places around the country that are selling crappy stock by morons who know nothing about fish?As per chris's statement we will always treat a problem area and not let it run on.Anto I don't meant o attack you personally, but saying the quality of fish here at the moment is very poor is just plain wrong. I post on this site personally, yeah I work for a shop..but It's not mine.I put the list up so dedicated fish keepers can keep in touch with whats going on I do it on my own time not on the shops.I've had it with this site though I'm all up for critisism where it is due, but realisticly I think you are pursuing some other kind of agenda perhaps? lots of people have stopped posting here as a result of the kind of rubbish that gets bandied about here.I am about to join their ranks.Unlike you I am a man of my word and will not return here.I will continue to offer discounts to the members of the ITFS and encourage them in any way I can. Thanks to all the people who I have met and delt with through this site.

Keep it fishy.
Gavin.

I will continue to offer discounts to the members of the ITFS and encourage them in any way I can.

Sorry but I have to ask this question Gavin,are you just sponsoring the ITFS or are you sponsoring all clubs i.e. LFKS ITFS GFKS SAS etc etc?

Ah Lads!

I thought this S**T had stopped some weeks ago. Yet again the forum is hijacked by an individual who has let the S**T hit the fan again and who loses - The Forum.

Gavin,
Any LFS that quarantines its stock for two weeks before sale is to be commended, not shamed. How many LFS do that?

Don't join the ranks of ex-forum members. The politics here are ridiculous. One of the main reasons why I don't join the LFKS. If this is the way people are online, imagine them at a meeting!

Just my tuppence worth.

Seany

Politics,without which the forum would descend into chaos.

Anto was perfectly entitled to state what he and others saw.If Gavin takes exception to this then it is between him and Anto,not the forum and certainly not the LFKS.
The LFKS promotes fishkeeping in this country,passionately and on our own free time.We are not a political club and promote an informal and friendly atmosphere at our meetings.We actively seek to help beginners and improve standards in Ireland.

In future if you are going to attempt to defame me,the LFKS or any of its members please attend a meeting before you do so.You would be pleasantly surprised at how laid back,informative and friendly they are and overall the craic is great.We have great books to lend to members and always have excellent raffle prizes.Sure at our Christmas raffle we had over €500 worth of prizes and 10 platters of food.We have a wealth of knowledge as we are lucky to have some excellent fishkeepers and people in the trade too.

Our meetings are not political and I must admit your comments are unfounded and obviusly one sided.

It is not a matter of Wackers integrity being called into question,it is a matter of fish being sick across the country and trying to understand it.Anto obiously mentioned Wackers to quantify that even they are experiencing problems,it was not a shot as I know he has a lot of respect for Gavin and the work he does.

Anthony wrote:

I have been in a few shops in the last few weeks and the general health of the fish were very poor.
Both Wackers petshops were very poor. Poor Discus and loads
of fish with whitespot and cotton bud like fungus growing
on some of them.
Is there an underlying reason for this.

Having re-read I can see Anto has tried to start an interesting thread on why keepers across the country are running into problems with their fish when there can be nothing found to blame,with non traceable elements in water being the number 1 probable blame.

This was clearly not a stab at Wackers,in fact reading between the lines it sounds more like Anto was surprised to see sick fish,wouldnt it be a different story if it didnt phase him at all?

Seany,you are calling the forum political yet you react becasue Anto was non Politically Correct (PC).Antagonisers are as much to blame IMO.

Is there an underlying reason for this.

This is the key element in this thread not the fact Wackers was mentioned.Like Gavin said all shops get sick fish,what actual real harm was done by an opinion being mentioned on the forum?Wackers through the help of this forum and its members has built up a huge reputation and a simple comment is not going to ruin that,far from it!

I think it's the way that the post was worded that has caused controversy really. It's the way it has been interpreted. Which is understandable.

It could be viewed as a stab at Wackers.

Or

It could be seen that Anto was surprised that even a shop of Wackers quality has experienced problems with fish quality.

Lets not let this get out of hand lads.

I think the post could be & was missread!! and would like to appologise to anyone who has been offended. I think Peter has explained the fact's very well, As for Gavin & staff at Wackers Full marks for identifying and getting on top of the situation.

crap yet again. what other shops did you visit Anto. you said you went to a few so why not comment on those. I take it you didnt because you found nothing to gripe about. If this is the case then they should get a mention for doing something right and stop with the negative all the time.

@ Chris I dont think that the forum would fall apart without the politics quite the opposite. We might even get more posters as has been the case recently when all of this rubbish was bottled for a while.

I would not say that the staff at whackers are a bit phased by all of this and to think that they would be put out by one gripe among many satisfied customers is just silly. I think you give the forum too much credit life does and will go on even if people dont talk on here. My understanding is that recently most posters have stopped altogether or are posting much less because of crap like this that just goes on and on.

Its like little children in a playground....na na
Grow up

Nessa,

It is not politics it is Admins (Darragh,Valerie and me) giving up our free time to run the forum in a fair manner to make it enjoyable for all involved.

If people dont want to contribute then are they worth having on the forum in the first place if a few heated comments are enough to deter them.Thats just an excuse...lets be honest here,the forum doesnt have enough new content to entice people to post all the time!I myself rarely find a post relating to my specific intetrests while there is a fair amount of general interest content.Life is too short!Either contribute or stop complaining.You cant have it both ways.

@ Chris I dont think that the forum would fall apart without the politics quite the opposite. We might even get more posters as has been the case recently when all of this rubbish was bottled for a while.

As an Admin I am involved in behind the scenes issues etc and there clearly is a need for rules or politics.As a matter of interest where have these \"Politics\" been enforced.This is a buzz word being bandied about at the moment but I dont see it.

IMO Anto probably should not have named Wackers.IMO Gavin over reacted by leaving and as you said yourself why would such a statement cause such a reaction?


I didnt claim Wackers owed its success to this forum but the forum did an awful lot as a medium for happy customers to report their findings.


Overall Nessa I can see why you are upset with a show coming up etc but why you seem to think I am somehow responsible is baffling?Do you think I would run Open Days to get new posters to this forum only for them to see arguments?No way....thats why we need rules...this thread was one case in particular and in no way is related to the way the forum is ran!