Controversy personal attacks vendettas+Arapiama

....oh my god here we go again...I never wanted to be controversial this is not a stunt....in fact i find it disturbing that u can single out something to have a crack at ...the irrelevance of this argument is astonishing.....If I bring in an arapaima with a view to caring for it then that is my decision not anyone else’s. I'm a fish keeper too u know...have u guys forgotten that????? if I wasn’t a fish keeper then half the fish species you have enjoyed over the years would never have made it into Ireland...u would have been at the mercy of Glenkrag’s fish list cause no one else had the balls to do what we did.
Drew and i have discussed the possibility of bringing an arapaima in for nearly 10 yrs now so lay off the cheap shots. Half the fish species we actually see in Ireland should stay in the lakes and rivers they came from so when it comes to splitting hairs I could milk this one.... but I wont because I have a sane and logical side too...at times.
The arapaima we have listed is a farmed specimen with full cities. They are actually farmed for meat. Now that’s a shock isn’t it? Did u know that? Or or u guys watching to much Nat geo?
Why is there someone always trying to take a pop at us when everyone knows that we try and care for our stock? Hand on heart out there, if there was a god of fish floating about he would destroy every single member of the LFS and ITFS for flushing so many fish down the toilet over the years.... Fish keeping can be a controversial subject...but without fish keepers the world be a different place......and not a nice one at that.
Most fish species imported perish before the reach any size in the first place so why are u complaining about something a few inches long......What about all the horses that are kept in back gardens in Dublin housing estates or black panther pairs I may add that live a few miles from where a lot of you live.....

Where does this argument go? A day ago I was branded a racist because I told a funny story the Irish way...I’m not RTE news, all suits and monotone...in fact I got a ton of pms thanking me for the little entertainment it brought....
As for mentioning taking us off the sponsors list that is shameful.... truly shameful.....Santa is going to take a good hard look at u my son....people in glass houses eh?

Well thank u for allowing me to rant.... and yes discussion is the way forward I am a reasonable man....
And yes I value your business and yes I value all the expertise out there.... because the LFS and ITFS have a lot of very knowledgeable fish keepers on board ...so how about I make a suggestion. Now hear me out because if u do not jump on board then u will miss out.... Why don’t we set up a programme.....between ITFS and LFS.....ye go on I hear you whispering through clenched teeth.....why don’t we set up a programme monitored by you guys to your satisfaction to import a few specimens not for general sale but remain the property of mine for public awareness with the view to housing and rearing the fish with the eventual return of it to the wild......now that’s a project that would put u guys on the map and I mean the achievement map...and the credibility map ,the map where we actually do more then just talking map…that’s something to tackle....and I would embrace the chance to be a part of the project and we could raise funds for its care and housing.....what would u say to that.....does this sound like I don’t care??
I should think this is a first of its kind project......we are not a garden centre selling plants and fish we are a fish shop selling hopes, expectation and inspiration. You cannot turn around and dismantle what we do over a cup of tea and a bitchin session this could be a worthwhile endeavour....I’m only human...as a footnote my father would never let me keep fish he thought it ridiculous....to the point that i kept fish in a biscuit tin under my bed for years this is 32yrs later and u guys are trying to do the same thing...we are a run down shed in the middle of nowhere that started with absolutely nothing...I had two buckets of koi and a passion that no one I know has matched....look how many people we have educated and inspired over the years....I'm not everyone’s cup of tea but the idea of doing some sort of project excites me its like being a kid again and I’m willing to put in the time and expense if u guys want to help out...so fair is fair what do u really think could this work??? Now is this banter helping me not looking like the stunt puller you are calling me? If need be we will build a swimming pool to do this.....anyone got arm bands with pictures of ducks on them they're my favourite!!
Cheers
All

ipcompto wrote:

.....
As for mentioning taking us off the sponsors list that is shameful.... truly shameful.....Santa is going to take a good hard look at u my son....people in glass houses eh?!
All

Wrong forum. This was on another forum not the ITFS.

I noted some comments on the fish-list posted, and my input on that is that I would prefer to see such discussion go on a separate thread such that the discussion is a global 'healthy' debate on the subject rather than being linked to any particular IFS.

The problem that I see with such a discussion on a sponsors section is that a proper discussion can not go on as any sponsor would not be in a fair position to state their case as a fish-keeper. If you follow.

I have my own personal opinions about such things....but I like to discuss them on a proper neutral forum area.

From such a neutral discussion platform, people can make their case....factual or opinionated, and then people can make up their own minds.

In such a discussion things such as Pengasius gigas will also be noted as being CITES appendix I etc etc, and that the arapaipma (for what ever reason) has a questionable status on the IUCN listing because of undefined criteria in its classification.

Hence, I have asked for a specific section or thread for these discussions.
On that, my hope is, personal attacks or alliances or similar has no place.

Now, I don't want to appear to be agreement with Ian specifically (the other Ian that is ) here.....but I really feel that personal battles should not be aired on a forum.
The same goes for any personal battles with any person.

ian

Ah Crap, the beast is awake again.

Kev.

yep it was the other forum i should have made that clear but it is irrelevant really the subjects out there now so lets beat it to death responsibly....i'm willing to make this a joint venture and if people are interested lets consider the whole thing as an act of conservation for monster fish in general...
IAn

ipcompto wrote:

Where does this argument go? A day ago I was branded a racist because I told a funny story the Irish way...I’m not RTE news, all suits and monotone...in fact I got a ton of pms thanking me for the little entertainment it brought....
As for mentioning taking us off the sponsors list that is shameful.... truly shameful.....Santa is going to take a good hard look at u my son....people in glass houses eh?

Ian,
Again, I don't think this is the place to have a rant on what you were told on another forum.

There might be some good ideas in your post and it could possibly generate additional fun on the fish-keeping scene in Ireland. I'll let the forum users debate over this.
However, the tone in which you expose them might be a little aggressive. I understand you are passionate and so are our fishkeepers.

As far as the comments re. the "monster fish" - this always has been a heated topic and I don't think you should read personal attacks through them.
If you want to contribute to it, ipmillichip/JohnH have opened a new topic here . You might want to contribute there.

Regards,
Valerie

Makes for lively reading all the same....i think this could be woth doing
IAn

why don’t we set up a programme monitored by you guys to your satisfaction to import a few specimens not for general sale but remain the property of mine for public awareness with the view to housing and rearing the fish with the eventual return of it to the wild......now that’s a project that would put u guys on the map and I mean the achievement map...and the credibility map ,the map where we actually do more then just talking map…that’s something to tackle....and I would embrace the chance to be a part of the project and we could raise funds for its care and housing.....what would u say to that.....does this sound like I don’t care??



Can you elaborate on this a little please

Also did you say its a 6000 litre or a 60000 litre water mass raedy

ian you go into some rants when you're under attack, and fair play to you i wouldn't sit there and take it from keyboard warriors that keep "their" testicles in a biscuit tin under "their" bed and we all know how wispers spread trough the two forums but yet some never go on the lame one to see your side of the argument, so i appriciate the fact that u keep us "cool" forum members informed of wats going on. i think this arapima plan is a good idea, a costly idea but such a plan (well planned) could get global recognition and attract a few extra visitors. and get a few more fish, lizards and snakes that have been around a long time, it would be like a prehistoric petting zoo with drew at the helm lol ah he's getting on now poor oul fella i'd recommend the clove oil treatment but u probably find that out dated and it might not work.

my shovel has gathered a bit of dust over the years but it still works if a voluntary dig out with a pond is needed

Hi der dar,
It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to land myself in it on these forums...its a reflection of modern society that doo gooders have to get enraged and high and mighty and i seem to be gettin a lot of it...you guys put us under pressure to bring in new exotic stuff then arguement fly about monster fish in home aquariums....the point is the do gooders should be tackling shops that dont educate their clientele.We dont sell to just anyone we quiz first sell second.How many guppys and goldfish get flushed down the loo there is never an outcry about those poor lost souls.....No its Arapiama that people shout for now ...captive bred at that....what about the poor cows...chickens ....ducks and hedgehogs even and other wild animals that people slaughter every year...did i mention slaughtering 6 " Arapiama er i dont think so....Im gonna bring them in for myself and the begrudgers better start coping on....their arguements are delusional...without people like us there would be no hobby full stop it would be a dreary world of neons and plecostomus...so i thank u for your support and the rest is going to be interesting...remember i have a huge overinflated ego to bump up so i got to inflate it till it bursts...
Cheers
IAn

i'd go for it, as long as your not breaking any rules. the thought of seeing one of these being well looked after in a suitable home is very VERY exciting, you might have to get more 'coin for food' dispensers to contribute to its feeding or some small people they are in abundance down my way

[EDIT - Post cleared as irrelevant to the topic]

I have to ask has this hole fiasco one big wind up

If so i must say i am a bit dissapointed as there have been some strong views from both people who have agreed with you about these fish and others who have disagreed.they say any publicity is good publicity but in this case i would strongly disagree

Clearing post #93919 as it has absolutely nothing to do with the current topic.

Valerie

Actually john i have to correct u there...what i said it is not about egos and i said i dont have a big ego this is not an ego buzz but everybody is going on about that and its not fair...i love my job i love fishkeeping i am a bona fide fish keeper the Arapiama if they arrive will be kept and not sold which is a concession to popular opinion which i do respect and i do respect your advice....just remember i did not start any of this in the first place except of course i did post up the Peru list...i dont think i have a chip on my shoulder...but i agree i am opionated and indeed combative...but we offer a great service as do other sponsors on here....so i'm damned if i do and damned if i dont really...the jibe a bout being censored was just a tongue in cheek jibe and you have a job to do and fair play i am ok with that but remember this our own sponsors section i dont stray off the path in that respect....some people enjoy the banter that goes on in our section and surely that is good for the itfs....i have pms stating the guys tune in for a bit of banter...thats what makes us a little different...is this so bad...but its not an ego trip anyone that knows me knows im fairly straight up...as for bad publicity...anyone that knows us should know that we look after our stock and we will always take back animals we sell and we rehouse them...we know guys with 10,000 litre aquariums who like to keep big predators especially stingray and red tail cats which are in the same league as Arapiama.....predators in captivity never reach their full potential size wise that is they will stunt to their surroundings as will all captive species...We have relocated some serious specimens in the past to guys that are more than capable of looking after them i know guys with monster fish that have been with them 20yrs + thats an achievement in itself so this has to be taken into account.
Some commenters have never been to see us and they dont know our facilities and they still pass judgement thats a little unfair i think.We are not a corner store petshop we have been directly importing for nearly 15yrs now can someone not recognise this for what it is....anyway the whole subject has highlighted the need for debate and that is a good thing it serves a purpose...and we dont act irresponsibly we never sell potential big fish to a customer if he cant look after it and thats a well known fact you know how particular Drew is about that and we always tell people to bring the specimen back when it outgrows its surroundings or becomes a problem....
I hope people understand where i'm comming from.
Cheers
IAn

ipcompto wrote:

predators in captivity never reach their full potential size wise that is they will stunt to their surroundings as will all captive species...IAn

I could be wrong but i dont think the above statement is entirly accurate
the fish will put out a hormone that will stop its body from growing but the internal organs don't stop growing,

ipcompto wrote:

we always tell people to bring the specimen back when it outgrows its surroundings

this is not a dig ian, i like your shop and enjoy visiting to see the wierd and wonderful stock you have but i took the above quote to just point out that morally i think its better to not sell a fish someone is incapable of housing for its full life rather than to take it back in the end. fair enough you are sound to take back the biggies alot of shops would not do this and blame the buyer for not researching the fish themselves, but this puts a physical and financial strain on your shop too as you need to fund its care and have to rehome it again. surely its better for yourself, business wise, to let it go to the right place first time for the long term?

David wrote:

ipcompto wrote:

predators in captivity never reach their full potential size wise that is they will stunt to their surroundings as will all captive species...IAn

I could be wrong but i dont think the above statement is entirly accurate
the fish will put out a hormone that will stop its body from growing but the internal organs don't stop growing,

To go into the full depth of that is quite complex and involved, but in short it could easily be called 'stunting by their surroundings' (even if I were explaining it, I would probably use such words).

But, yep fish can release chemicals that will halt their own and other fishes growth. Large water changes will help overcome that.
However, there is more to it than simply the release of pheromones or whatever. For some fish, the shear amount of food required to sustain their metabolism and their detox system and still allow for growth is quite phenomenal. That amount of food dumped into a tank each day (not on about the big predators here) would cause practical problems for filtration systems and would itself be a growth-stunter. Our cute Discus really need 20% of their body weight per day on average upto attaining their full size.... that will cause practical and biochemical problems. If the fish then need to use energy to compensate for transient ammonia levels in the water then that will stunt growth..... a bit like a cyclic argument really.
But, as with everything that mother nature has put before us.....there is more.

ian

really confused????????????
this is going on, on 2 different forums and on this 1 it has bin stated it will be kept in a 60,000L
and on the other forum it has bin stated it will be kept in a 6,000L witch is it?????
its bin awhile since iv bin in AV

Hi Clarke that was me, we have a 6000 litre indoor pond which can be heated we also have a 30,000 litre koi pond outside.. sorry my calculation was erm.. a bit out.. still big tho

joey wrote:

ipcompto wrote:

we always tell people to bring the specimen back when it outgrows its surroundings

this is not a dig ian, i like your shop and enjoy visiting to see the wierd and wonderful stock you have but i took the above quote to just point out that morally i think its better to not sell a fish someone is incapable of housing for its full life rather than to take it back in the end. fair enough you are sound to take back the biggies alot of shops would not do this and blame the buyer for not researching the fish themselves, but this puts a physical and financial strain on your shop too as you need to fund its care and have to rehome it again. surely its better for yourself, business wise, to let it go to the right place first time for the long term?

I wouldn't totally agree with you there Joey. If for example AV or any other LFS for that matter sold someone a 2 inch bala shark for say €5 and the customer arrives back in 2 years time to the same LFS with a then 6 inch specimen stating it has out-grown their tank, I'm pretty sure the LFS would be charging approx 3 times their original price to their next customer given its extra size. In this case the customer is doing the LFS a favour instead of the other way round.

Dave

i know all too well about that, although i bought the fish with the intention of keeping them full term and at full size they did not outgrow my tank i just wanted to change the set-up and they did not fit in with what i wanted. as you mention bala's - mine were traded at 8-9" after little over a year from 3"

Hi Clarke that was me, we have a 6000 litre indoor pond which can be heated we also have a 30,000 litre koi pond outside.. sorry my calculation was erm.. a bit out.. still big tho

ahh i see well iv already said my piece on a different forum so i wont repeat it but whatever yous decide to do best of luck

Why bother taking fish from half-way around the world, when you can catch a few elvers in the lake out front, grow them on in the tank, giving them atlantic conditions and *** them back in the lake when they get frisky? Much more of a challenge than growing soely fresh-water food fish? (Although, Tesco are cheaper!)
Then again, Brazillian fish-keepers might get upset at this cruel practice.

as this simple question has not been asnwered

Again I have to ask has this hole fiasco one big wind up

Hi Dave,
Yes fiasco is right....no it is not a big winds up i intend to bring in some 4-6" Arapiama for our use and i have consented to not offering them for sale..they are for my own project.It is up to me to house them correctly and i intend to do this.The arguement that broke out was laughable at best...as usual we missed the point entirely you cannot point the finger in my direction and say im in the wrong because fishkeeping in general would have to be examined fairly closely....is fish keeping ethical....Aquatic Village has always tried to do things properly so we will see if we can do this properly.And just remember arapiama are a food fish in their own country and are farmed for just that reason we are buying farm raised species so in fact i am rescuing 4 Arapiama(4"-6" long)and nobdy mentions that in their witch hunt now do they....
Cheers
IAn

Then Ian if you are serious about this and feel that the keeping of this fish is within your capabilities i wish you and AV all the best of luck with your project and i have to say i would like to be kept upto date with how things are progressing for you

Happy Arapiama Keeping

Could you scale that down for me please? By that I mean could you give me the equivalent scale for a neon tetra. For example if this 6,000 litre pond is 12 foot long and this fish grows to 6 foot that would be the same as keeping a 1 inch neon in a 2 inch tank.

It might help people to see what the conditions are for such a big fish, in dimensions we can all get our head around.

Thanks.

alan61979 wrote:

Could you scale that down for me please? By that I mean could you give me the equivalent scale for a neon tetra. For example if this 6,000 litre pond is 12 foot long and this fish grows to 6 foot that would be the same as keeping a 1 inch neon in a 2 inch tank.

It might help people to see what the conditions are for such a big fish, in dimensions we can all get our head around.

Thanks.

More like a shot glass of water