newbie with question!!

hey guys,

great site, i'm new to keeping fish and need some advice,

my father aqcuired a fish tank about three weeks ago and we've bought a few things for it..
its current set up is as follows..
its a tank 30cm x 30cm x 60cm i think..
currently holding 9 goldfish (dont know the kinds sorry)

i have a filter going, gravel, plants, air bubble machine (dont know the name of it) and an ornament.

i've been doing regular water changes (once every three days or so) and i'm testing the water too.

I've been using that bacteria stuff you get in the lfs so its helping a little with the nitrate and nitrite levels, however, last night, i noticed on two of the gold fish, that white dots have started to appear on their fins, i'm afraid this could be ich and i'm not sure how to check..

i know alot of you guys are going to say i've over stocked on fish and i think you guys are right, however, i have been doing my research even before i got the tank, but hopefully we'll be getting a new tank near the end of the year so size shouldnt be a long term issue.

any other tips or recommendations on items i should get please let me know..

also, how do i tell if its ich? and is the standard stuff you get in lfs's good enough to cure/kill it? without harming my fish?

thoughts and suggestions welcome..
thanks in advance

hi oregato welcome to the site. It sounds to me that you have acase of white spot/ich. My advice is to quarentine the fish in a seperate tank (STRAIGHT AWAY) away from the other fish as they may infect the others if they have not already dene so and get down to your lfs and get some meds/treatments. What types of goldfish are they. It is sometimes hard to diagnose fish illnesses as some of the fancy goldfish (Orands, Moor etc) are very prone to be sick. Here is a link which may help you. It has helped me in the past to treat my fish and rescue them from death.

www.goldfishinfo.com/identify.htm

Are the fish rubbing off the gravel or the sides of the tank and if you could give us the water parameters that you tested, it would also help?

Some may not agree with me on this but if you put some Epsom salt into the water it will help as it has done for me. You can get this in the chemist!!!

Let us know how you get on!!!

Leonie

thanks for the reply..
currently in my tank i have..

1 - Black Moor
1 - Ryukin
3 - Common gold fish
2 - Unknown, they look a bit like lion head but are different in colour, one is almost orange with black stripes and the other seems to be silver - ish
2 - Unknown, about 3 - 4 inchs both and are gold and white in colour.
1 - Sucker/ Algae eater

i have sent my friend to the pet store for me to get some meds so will be treating it later on..

Nitrate and Nitite levels were .5 and 10 i think.. ph was fine when i checked 4 days ago..

the 2 gold and white ones are the ones infected i think, seems to be some red streaks in the fins as well (looks like blood but i'm unsure)

any thoughts?

alos, you have said that to put the infected fish into isolation, i'm afraid a lack of funds and lack of space has caused us not to be able to purchase a new tank, so i'm afraid, they have to stay where they are
they dont seem to be rubbing off anything either

Where do you live. I am sure if there is someone near you they could give you a hand and give you a lend of a tank!! regarding the Nitrate and nitirte they should be around 10 and 0 respectively anything higher and you need to do a water change.

Gf are extremely dirty fish and to have an tank that is overloaded with them is not a good idea. What type of filter do you have as it may be the case that the filter cannot cope with all the waste. Be careful feeding them as overfeeding will lead to more waste causing the Ammonia and Nitite levels to rise.

what is the PH and Ammonia levels like?

Another thing common gf should not be kept in with the fancy ones - I have never tried this but have been told in lfs never to do this.

Regarding the red streaks it may be caused from other fish nipping at them or from the sahrp edges of rocks ornaments etc.

hope this is of some use.

BTW I am in the D15 area and have a small quaretine tank I could lend you!

thanks for the help nonie, i'm based in the dublin 6 area, they dont seem to fight much at all, i think one of them go around nipping now and again, but has stopped doing it..

the filter is more than enough i think, its nearly as tall as the tank itself and has a double filter thingy majiggy. (sorry but i'm not too clued up on terminology just yet)

thanks for the website, the thing is, the white dots are appearing on his tail as opposed to the fins (the one along the top of him) could it be something else?

i asked two lfs and they said that it should be ok to leave the fish in together.. and being from two quite reputable petshops, i took their word..

also, the ryukin seems to be hiding behind the filter alot, at the top near the water surface, i dont know whats up with it, but its been doing that for ages now..

by the way, the tank is in its third week now i think..

hopefully i'll do around a 15% water change tonight and i'll check my ammonia levels after and post results.

Ok - a few things

1. did you cycle the tank before you put fish in it
2. What is the name of the filter and I can look up the specs on it to make sure that it is powerful enough
3. IMO I would do a 25-50% water change as the Nitrite levels are a bit high

The spots are on their dorsal fins and it may be the same thing (hard to tell). If you could post a pick up im sure someone can shed more light on the problem!! Check this out to give you a brief overview of their anatomy.

www.desktopgoldfish.com/goldfish-anatomy.php

I know the lfs's told you it is ok to keep them together but ny experience of that when I started out led to alot of dead fish.

The ryukin may be feeling threathened by some of the other fish. Is it showing any signs of difficulty breathing or is its gills moving rapidly. I think you said you have an air pimp and stone in the tank, this will provide oxegen for the fish but it may not be enough. To help with this place the filter 1cm below the surface of the water and this will disturb the surface of the water to aid with the oxegen levels in the tank. If you can give me the name of the pump and size of the air stone later I can assist you a bit more with it.

Leonie

thanks agaon nonie, i'm at work today and will be pulling a late one tonight, should be home at around 11 or 12 so i'll post up the details later on tonight.

i didnt cycle the tank before i got the fish to be honest (i know, i'm going to get flamed and its a stupid thing that i havent done it, but i'm trying to learn from my mistakes and i'm using different products such as the starting solutions to try help my mistake)

ryukin isnt doing much apart from just hiding in the cornet, he's always at the very top of the water aswell, never down the bottom.
the air pump basically leads into a tube in the tank that has tiny holes in it, i have an ornament in the tank aswell though..
The filter is around 1 cm below the surface and use to blow out a few bubbles, but lately it hasnt blown any bubbles (you can still see the current of the water flowing, but no bubbles) its on the highest setting for air flow and the lowest setting for water flow.

Hi Oregato,

welcome to the site

I agree with most of what Leonie says. Though I would say it is time to treat all your fish. so don't worry about the isolation tank. The epsons salt I would only use if the fish seem constipated. I would add some tonic salt about three teaspoonfuls instead. I would also increase the flow on the pump, start off at about one third increase if it is not stressing the fish. I would also consider a water change and wash the filter in the water you remove. Treat the new water before adding to the tank with stress coat or something similar.

When you finish this and added the water add some stress zyme or nutrafin tank cycle, for now this will have to be done daily to allow the filter to catch up with the number of fish.

I would reduce the amount of food and if you have a heater add it and take the temp up to 30, I know everyone says that they're coldwater fish but they can take high temps, after all they were originally bred in Asia!! This will cause the whitespot to be very unhappy and it will die off. You should still use a good treatment in the tank to ensure you wipe this out totally, the biggest problem is you will have to keep it at the required level so when you do water changes you will have to dose accordingly.

We have all done this and at times knowing better we still make these mistake!(impulse buying is a killer)

Regular water changes is the key!

the temp should be raised slowly and when the problem is solved lower it slowly this temp is not good for the fish. thus this is only temperory!!!

Mickey
P.S never be afraid to ask a question cause its guaranteed i've already asked a stupiter one:woohoo:

thanks for the help guys,

right nonie, heres some info...

my tank is 30 cm x 30 cm x 60 cm (can some one tell me how many litres it holds?)

i have a tetratec 600 (for 50 to 100 litres) filter

and have 'interpet anti white spot plus' for the white spots, i have applied it into the tank tonight and it has turned the water green/blue... (i think thats whats ment to happen anyway)

i have a air pump but its only a cheapy one, i've left the filter running as well as the air pump, the two plants i have in it are still in there and i have just removed the ornament

thank you for the welcome mwdragondk..

i have been adding stress zyme and stress coat after every water change.. i'm afraid its so late that i dont have the time to check on the water levels and i'm away for the weekend.

i have instructed my father to look after them (he got into fish as well after i got them) i told him not to over feed (once every two days)

the medication says treat again on the fourth day so i take it that that is monday. i think i will buy a heater to use aswell as i hope to keep tropicals later on ( i wont be mixing them with gold fish dont worry)

if you guys have any tips or tricks or suggestions or critisms please feel free to share.

thanks again lads, great site

the tank is about 54l/12gals total

do if you allow for the space at top its more like 49L/11Gals

i would not worry about the heater since you don't have one to hand. and why waste money till you need it.

most importantly make sure the surface of the water has alot of movement that is where oxygen really gets into water the more disturbance = more oxygen

i know there is a good piece on here some where if i remember right by Derek about the life cycle of whitespot that fully explains how and why to use treatment. i will look it up or maybe some one reading could add the link.

if you are not able to do water changes than feed them before you go and just get someone to check on them while you are away but not feed them.

If there is a problem tell them to log on here and someone will advise them on what to do as soon as possiable.

The simple fact of the matter is this:

You have 9 Goldfish (they produce vast amounts of waste)in a 50ltr tank. The tank was uncycled from the start and you are still getting Nitrite readings, which should be zero.

The tank is still not fully cycled and due to the poor water quality you have encountered what is presumably Whitespot. Your fish are stressed and being poisened by the Ammonia/Nitrite in your water.

You need to treat the cause and not treat the symptoms.

Get rid of at least 4 fish and continue with small daily water changes until your Nitrite is gone and your Nitrate is at an acceptable level.

As Peter said but for now, you have a state of emergency.
I think you should do a huge water change, at least 75%, and clean the heck out of the sand/gravel when you do it. With cold water fish this should not be as big a problem as with tropical.
Did you get a gravel vacuum type tool?
They are cheap and invaluable tools. If you haven't got one, get one or borrow one.
The WS treatment you have is (allegedly) not great but it will do the job IME.
Until that filter cycles (roughly 6 weeks) water channges are the most important thing you can do.
Its not rocket science, ammonia in the water = replace the water!

thanks guys, just back from holidays now and have a look at the fish, all seems well, they seem to be happy enough and the white spot on the small fella seems to be disappearing a little.

i'll do a water change later on and test the water afterwards aswell.

i have one of those gravel cleaner syphon tools already, but thanks for the suggestion.

hi Oregato, That is a 12 Galllon, 45l tank that you have. It seems that the filter and pump are fine and should be left running all the time. The gf do not need a heater as they are cold water fish so I would hold off grtting one until you gat the tropicals. Sounds like you are doing well with the white spot but do keep us poated in the update.

Leonie

thanks for the information nonie. i was thinking of holding back on the heater for a while anyway (lack of funds)

i just did a 30 - 35 % just there and then tested the water afterwards.. here are the results..

PH - 6.0 to 6.2
High PH - 7.4
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
NItrate - 10

I'm very pleased that the Nitrite has gone to zero, however, the Nitrate level is the same as when i tested it on the 19th of March.

any other suggestions?

i just treated them again with the white spot medicine, and hopefully it will clear it more, seems like its working, but may be its slow working..

i'll try post a few pics of my set up later on if i can.. thanks again for the help.. and any further suggestions etc are welcome.. thanks

Just a few pics of the fish and you'll notice one of them has white spot..

cool seems like you are doing really weel. Alot of these things take a while to clear and are a slow process.

Great news about the parameters, the Nitrate should be between 10 - 20 so its looking good. Keep the water changes up until the whitespot has cleared.

Some great pics there as I find it so difficult to take clear pics my fish n for a newbie yor doing well!!!

I still think that the tank is a bit crowded - have you thought about taking a few out?


Leonie

thanks for the comments nonie.

i dont think i'll be taking any out as i dont know where to put them yet, will hopefully be getting a new tank in the coming months so it should be less crowded, i'll hopefully be doing another water change tomorrow night so i'll see what the readings are then..

i was really surprised about the nitrite levels being at zero actually, i'm happy with that myself, feeding is now down to only once every two days and maybe less depending on the waste i see coming out during water changes.

Hi there, I've been keeping gf for a over tens years and just moved into tropicals. I've a few things to say.

Firstly, your tank is way way over stocked, as your fish will at least double in size over the next few years...gf can live for over ten years if looked after well..although fancy ones have only ever lasted about 8yrs for me, I think they're a little more fragile. Would also say that overstocking atank is just going to be bad news constantly... fish will be stressed, and when fish are stressed they are more prone to getting sick. Would also say that if you intend to keep them in this tank till the end of the year at least one will die, probably. I would suggest giving away four fish, or leaving them back to pet shop.. if you have a pond goldfish type one, could be moved into it, provided you don't have very big Koi...(not fancy fantails as they usually don't survive winter in a pond, although my uncles have survived for years in a pond)... add some hide aways for your fish...if your short on cash a good alternative is to get a coconut cut the top off with saw, hang it up and feed inside to birds or wait till the inside rots and falls out, simmer the shell in a sauce pan for 20mins. more plants would be good too, becareful of picking live plants as my fish think most of them are food. generally though leaved plants are good. or you could just get plastic ones, would recommend ebay for this as ones in petshop can be a bit expensive for what you get.

keeping the aquarium well oxygenated and filtered is very important, but others have already said this and you seem to be doing this. just to say again you don't need a heater for these fish as they don't really like the heat. and if you want to move to tropical fish you will need a whole new tank... the bigger the better as there is way more choice in tropical fish... also wouldn't take on tropical fish untill you feel confident with coldwater fish...as tropical fish is alot of work, especially if something goes wrong, such as you get whitespot, or they start breeding.

If you get rid of some of the fish you have you could add some smaller cold water fish, like white cloud minnows. they don't grow very big and seem to get on well with goldfish and fantails. would also say that if you cut down the amount of fish you have you will also find them much much easier to look after as you will only need to do partial water changes about once a month and just keep a check on the filter and clean it when needed. you will also not get problem like whitespot.

Basically if you get rid of a few fish live will be much easier for you and the fish.
Good luck with the fish, hopefully you get many years of enjoyment out of them.

thanks for the information oog, problem is, i get attached and think i've already gotten attached to them all.. (i knew i shouldnt have named them lol)

but hopefully i'll get the house sorted asap, i'm aiming for a new tank by the end of june or maybe july and hopefully all the fish will still be there.. i'll just have to wait and see.. if i do find that they are too crowded though, i will take your advice and give them away or back to the petstore.. but for now.. i'm going to try my hardest not to give up on them.

i also have a question about the filter medium, i know i'm ment to clean it every week or so, but when do i actually need to replace it?

I would clean the filter every 3/4 weeks but definitely not every week.

Cleaning the filter is a double edged sword really, while you are removing physical waste you are also removing beneficial bacteria at the same time.

I barely ever change any filter media, except for when i'm helping someone seed a new filter or something.You could change a quarter of the sponge every three months but I can't even see the benefit of even doing that.

I've read that the general rule of thumb with spong is when it starts to lose its springyness then change it but again I don't see why that would effect anything!!!!!

cool, thanks for that peter, i'll take your advice, the guidlines in the filter instructions instruct me to change the pieces every month, i thought this was a bit contradicting as my understanding was that the bacteria builds up in the filter media and thats why it should be kept..

would agree with peter, a quick rinse about once a month is good, ( but this will depend on the amount of fish and how much waste they are producing and if they are being over fed...etc. if you see the power of your filter falling before the month, its time to clean the sponge) it is also said that it is best to rinse the sponge in a basin of water from the aquarium, and throw this water away when done. It is also supposed to be bad to squeeze or ring out the sponge when cleaning, but when it's really dirty sometimes its needed. oh and always add few drops of stress enzyme after cleaning it. There fairly hardy fish though, so common sense should keep them alive. Hope they hold out for another few months.

cheers oog, the over feeding problem i had at the start has been sorted and they're now getting fed once every two days and they're only getting just enough food..

oog, you mentioned the 'power of the filter falling' how do you measure this? is it when the water outlet stops spewing out bubbles and just pure water?

every time i've rinsed the sponge, i've used that tip and washed it in the water taken out of the tank.

i normally do squeeze and ring it out, but if i dont do this then alot of the dirt is deposited in the spong.

i've been using stress coat and stress enzyme on the filter every time i've washed them.

Hey guys,

just have another question,

i have heard that gf are not that keen on temperature changes, currently in the house the temperature can be anywhere between 19 and 22, is it ok to have it fluctuating a few degrees like this?

i was thinking of a heater so that maybe i stablise the temperature so that it doesnt keep falling and dropping..

i know they are coldwater fish, but i heard that gold fish can be adapted to warmer waters.

what do you guys think? to heat or not to heat?

I would say not to heat. unless you have them in a room that get no sun light and has the heating off all year... but before you pay for a heater, get a glass alcohol thermometer that goes inside the tank ( therfore it only reads water temp. and room temp won't effect it). check the temp few times a day and then you'll see if its really changing alot, wouldn't worry if its just going up and down a tiny bit, between day and night.don't think regular gf like the heat that much, but fantails can tolerate temp up to 26c( according to a book I have)...but too high a temp will speed up there metabolism and hence make them die faster.

thanks oog, i already have a glass thermometer inside the tank and the readings vary from between 19 - 23 at times.. its in the living room which is north facing and has heating now and again..

any other thoughts/comments?

I've kept them for years with no heater. I had one gold fish for 15yrs, but apparently they can live for upto 30yrs...but I would say this is unlikely in a small aquarium. I've had Fan tails live for up to 10yrs, but usually 8 yrs. temp is usually between 18 and 22c..but can get little warmer in summer.I've been keeping these fish for about 17years (with a little help for my Dad in early years)and have only had one fish with a swim bladder problem. so obviously they're happy enough and not that stressed. temp shouldn't really be jumping more than two degrees in a day. My tank is in a study that get regular use and heating like the rest of the house, when it was in my parents it was in a kitchen.

to be very blunt though...to heat or not to heat is not a big problem....You should worry more about your over stocked tank.Did you try to get rough measurements of fish at their current size?If it adds up to more than 50cm, you need to focus more on this issue for the moment. if it's still under 50cm... this will only be for a few months as gold fish can grow to 10cm very quickly. if given enough space they will double or triple in size. My 15yr old got to about 15cm... not counting its very long tail. But my uncle moved into a house that has a pond with koi, gf and one fantail. the gf were very close to a foot long and the fantail was somewhere between 20-25cm long and very wide. (fantails usually not suitable for ponds as don't last cold winter, but this fantail was obviously an exception).

anyway sorry to harp on again...heater might be an idea.. but prob not necessity just at the moment, especially if you get bigger tank for these guys (bigger tank means you might need a higher watt heater).In my opinion anyway... you can always wait a day and see what everyone has to say. if you do get a heater wouldn't set it higher than 22c.oh and make sure to get one with thermostat...but I'm sure you had that figured already.

thanks again for the help oog, i know the overstocking is a problem, i'll add up the length of the fish tonight and report back, i'm working late, so will be at least midnight by the time i get to post.