raising PH, KH

hi all
little help with my tank ph and kh readings. im running a large 1000l tank using organic aqua, it was set up 5 months ago and in fairness to OA the fish are all doing great. however the ph reading at start up was 7.2 and after 5 months its down to 6.4 now. the KN was 6 to 7% and now its 3 maybe 3.5. im using a large pond air pump( 50liters per min) feeding 3 2inch air stones and a 4ft air wall so i think i have lots of aeration in the tank. i have to keep a heavy lid on the tank cause of the type of fish i keep but i have a 5ft 300L sump so i guess i have enough open water surface for air exchange. i have alot of roots and bog wood in the tank that im blaming for lowering the PH over 5 months. I want to raise the PH and KH without using chemicals as i dont know how they will react with OA. I have some texas rock here in a shed outside, my question is if i put the rock in the sump will it raise the PH gradually and what can i use to raise the buffering KH. thanks for any advise ye have to offer.

Hi on a much small scale a raised my ph using ocean rock from my lfs shop have about 3 kg of it in a 60 litre tank and my ph reads 8.3and has been steady at that for the last few months

ive thought of that shane, yes sea rock, coral, sea shell will all release calcium into the water raising the KH and therefore the Ph they also release salt(sodium) into the water and i have large plecos that are very sensitive to salt.

Ok so all i can think of at min is baking soda or ya could use peat maybe

Sounds a little like "Old Tank Syndrome" but without knowing any of your Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite test results I can't be sure.
It would be better to discover the causes for the drop in pH and Kh rather than to try and raise them.
Have a look at this link.
freshaquarium.about.com/od/problemsolvin...ld_tank_syndrome.htm

Shane wrote:

Ok so all i can think of at min is baking soda or ya could use peat maybe

Baking soda could be a possible cure, but as far as i know peat will only drop the PH even more.

CrustyCrab wrote:

Sounds a little like "Old Tank Syndrome" but without knowing any of your Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite test results I can't be sure.
It would be better to discover the causes for the drop in pH and Kh rather than to try and raise them.
Have a look at this link.
freshaquarium.about.com/od/problemsolvin...ld_tank_syndrome.htm

more like "old man syndrome" in my case . heres the API test done last night, ammonia over 8ppm, nitrite 0ppm, nitrate 40ppm, these have being fairly constant sine the start. PH 6.4, KH 3d. ammonina over 8ppm all my fish should be dead in the first 24hours but like i said in first post im using OA so any water test results are a waste of time as OA gives totally false readings, all i know is all my fish are feeding and growing very well with no health issues. id still like to raise the PH to 6.8-7.4 area. bread soda as suggested by shane will raise it over night but maybe only short term, thats why im thinking the texas rock in the sump might be slower but more permanent. WHAT DO YE THINK?

Don't use Baking Powder, not stable in the long term, a net bag of coral sand, or even crushed oyster, cockle shells will raise your ph and Kh and keep it there.

thanks crusty, i did know bread soda is not a long term solution. ill use the coral sand and check the readings in a week.

ive put about 4kilos of coral sand in the sump, i used an old pillow to hold it, but the ph is still dropping to about 6 now, so i used ph,pk up last nite, the fish dont seem to be affected but i know long term its a different story. the total water volume is about 1300L so maybe 4kilos of coral sand is not enough. with the OA system of doing water changes every month im reluctant to do any water changes now.will i just keep using the ph,kh up and hopfully it will improve, any advise.

I remember when organic aqua first came out speaking to someone about readings in the tank and they said organic aqua messes with the reading and are more than likely not true values now this was 3-4 years ago it could be different now as I haven't looked into too much since then

Have a few questions for you about the tank .
1:do you use a co2 system for plants ?
2:Did you get a decent test kit ?
3: What is the ph reading from your tap water ?
4:Did you soak the bog wood before you added it,bog wood will lower your ph allot if you have allot.No matter how big your tank is.My 720 litre had bogwwod and was ph of 6 and came from the tap in my house at 7.4.
5:Do you use catappa leaves or almond leaves ect ?(may sound silly but just something to rule out.
6:Are you sticking to a routine water change ? I did 2 a month on my 720 s

In my experience some of the naturally occurring causes of a pH drop include excess carbon dioxide, tannins from driftwood.Decay of plants can cause co2 and also the more fish you have the more co2. If you do not properly treat your driftwood before adding it to the tank it can cause problems with your water chemistry.
a pH drop may also be caused by the nitrification stage of biological filtration (cycling) I would get a good test kit and recheck all readings.
Also your NO3 level is way too high which means you need more water changes.
The fact you have a reading for Ammonia makes me wonder what type of filtration you have and how many fish your tank has and how big they are.

hi ceech, to answer some of your questions regarding my tank.
its not a planted tank so not using any co2, i did try planting anubis but the silver dollars just eat them, there are a few roots left on the bog wood.
im using an API test kit, but my tank is on the Organic Aqua system and gives totally false readings for ammonia nitrite and nitrate, I used a dip stick to test ph and kh, maybe im just getting false readings with them too.
ive never done a proper tap water ph test ie leaving it stand for 24 hours and test then.
i have a lot of big bog wood and red moor roots in the tank and the water is stained with tannin also the substrate is stained, but i use activated carbon once a month to clear up the tannin.
the ammonia readings of over 8ppm is off the scale and should have killed the fish months ago, but because of the OA system this is not a true reading and as all my fish are healthy im guessing the ammonia is at 0. i have adult sail fin plecos and they are sensitive to any ammonia levels.
i have about 30 fish in the tank ranging in size from 55cm to 15cm with average size about 300cm, so its well stocked .
as per the OA system in only do a water change every 30 days with 20% water change.
i think now is a good time to do a bigger water change and see what happens, but with OA its impossible to get true test results. the only thing i know is 5 months ago when i set up the tank the ph was 7.4 and now its about 6 and falling.
this could be the cause of the bog wood and roots tannin, so im using coral sand in the sump to try and counter act the tannin.
thanks for your interest in the topic and hope your summer in Finland is as nice as we are having here.

paulv wrote:

i have about 30 fish ... with average size about 300cm, so its well stocked .

With 30 fish 3 meters on average I'd say yes, it is a bit overstocked!

Here's a few of the main general bullet points why the pH may have shifted

www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/forum...hange-simple-listing

With the rather low frequency of partial water changes given, though, my first port of call would be that the RedOx balance of your system is drifting.
If there is insufficient calcium or magnesium ions in the water to somewhat neutralise the Nitrous and Nitric Acid your tank is producing, then you can start to see not just a decrease in pH but you will also see an exponetial decrease in the buffering capacity......that will will lead to a lowering of pH and a further lower of buffering etc etc: in system that have strived towards very soft water, this can often lead to then acid crash.

The test kits used for fish keeping to measure calcium and magnesium levels are not specific for their RedOx capacity: so you could be reading highish calcium readings with your test kit but it may not be the right form.

Hence, fresh changes of water to "recharge" the waters "battery" (so to speak) will do wonders.

Bicarbonsate of Soda is a suitable agent for raising pH but it can also have the opposite effect if not used correctly; calcium carbonate (eg coral gravel) are excellent buffers.

It all depends on what you are keeping as to how high the need the pH to go......and also ask is the lowered pH a real problem at all?

On OA....whatever the facts or fictions on the product: that is another topic

ian

Bohrio wrote:

paulv wrote:

i have about 30 fish ... with average size about 300cm, so its well stocked .

With 30 fish 3 meters on average I'd say yes, it is a bit overstocked!

opsss one little 0 to many and now im keeping basking sharks

thanks ian, i was hoping you would add your expertise to this topic, your correct of course, as of now the tank ph is not affecting the fish in any way, so why worry, its just the ph is dropping and not stable, thats my worry. ill do a partial water change even its not due for another 2 and half weeks with the OA system. the tank is over stocked i know that and the fish are still growing with the tiger shovel noses reaching 30inchs in time but there is about 1300l of water in the system. on a different topic i am the one that has the thread about breeding locusts and you gave a great reply on how you breed them over the years, so just an update on my set up, the last few days ive noticed the adults mating so hopefully in about 3 weeks ill have my first hatchlings . thanks again for all your help.

paulcavan wrote:

I remember when organic aqua first came out speaking to someone about readings in the tank and they said organic aqua messes with the reading and are more than likely not true values now this was 3-4 years ago it could be different now as I haven't looked into too much since then

.
ive being using OA just for 5 months so im only learning about it, as my big tank has about 1300l of water including the sump, with a traditional system of biological filtration it needs a weekly water change of 20 to 25%, means im changing 300l plus water a week so i opted for the OA system with a once a month water change. there is a weekly addition of health conditioner which i must say really does keep the fish in good health even healing up any cuts and scratches the fish get as they hunt at night. i feed my fish every third day and by feeding time they almost would eat the hand that feeds them, a really good indicator that all is well with any fish. the biggest draw back i see, with using OA is that i cant use a test kit, as the readings are not true readings of whats going on in the tank so i only have the fishes behavior to judge the water condition . in my tank now i think its the bog wood and roots that have leached tannin in to the water over last 5 months that's causing low ph and kh readings, something that can happen in any system. would i recommend OA to a friend, yes.

Tanis will definately bring down your ph level in the tank.Also they say in OA system it is better to use only sponges/mechanical media- not specific biological media.So using active carbon might not be a great idea but i am sure there are lots of different views on that matter.
This may seem a really stupid question but is the filter placed high enough to break the surface of the water to ensure good penetration of oxygen throughout the tank.Also with such a big tank are you sure enough air is in the tank.I know you said you had a pond air pump but my personal experience was that the biggest eheim worked really well at least 2 if not 3 if had.Also for my L107 i have huge flow and mass of bubbles coming from the filter to ensure lots of air in the water.Does not look as clear but i aint looking for preety tanks for breeding , just clean and simple.
Do you have a Organic Aqua Maintenance Kit ?
soft water aslo has a low buffering capacity , so this may be another reason.
The only other thing i can advise you to do is to make sure your are cleaning your substrate correctly .The wastes (gunk) that build up release acids as they break down and lower the pH levels, part of the natural waste process. You however need to know your hardness(KH and GH) in an actual measurement for both your tank and your tapwater to get to the root of your problem as this determines your pH directly.
Hope maybe some of my information can help. Keep me posted on how you are getting on.
What PH do you fish require ? Most fish unless will caught can adapt.

hi ceech, firstly im sory i wished you well in Finland when your actually from Norway . i have a sump filter with 4 layers of sponge filtering and one section filled with filter floss only. im using OA maintenance kids every month and the weekly health conditioner. my return pump turns over the tank volume 4 times an hour, not perfect i know and the return pipes are under the water surface, im aware that i may not have good surface water disturbance to allow for air exchange but im using a strong air pump system both in the sump and the tank which gives strong bubble flow to the surface and the fish dont seem to suffer from lack of o2. i have to have a heavy lid on the tank to stop fish from jumping out and i only have about 5cm between water surface and lid, so providing any water surface agitation is not easy. ive just done a test strip test on my tap water and its reading GH 4d, KH 3d and PH 6.8. this is not an accurate test but its a general guide line. even the tap water GH is 4d its over 20d in my other 400l tank using traditional bio/mechanical filtering, i have hard water in the tanks and should have good buffering. i must be honest ive never cleaned the substrate in the big tank cause ive a large giraffe cat fish that by its very nature turns over the substrate on a daily bases.maybe its time i did a good substrate vacuuming. here's a list of my fish in the big tank, 3 tiger shovel nose cat fish, 6 oscars, 6 spotted silver dollars, 1 chocolate cichlid, 1 giraffe cat fish, 1 golden cobra snakehead, 2 ornate birchers,1 silver arowana, 6 large various synodontis cat fish, 2 giant asain upside down cat fish, 2 sail fin plecos and 1 young golden royal pleco L27, recently added chinese soft shell turtle. the TSH cats and the arowana have more growing to do but all the others are adults. alot of big fish putting pressure on any filter, i know i should destock but they are all my babies ive reared them all from young fish in a 100l tank moved up to a 400l tank and now the 1000l, and i cant decide which ones to sell on ( .

Wow that is a huge amount of fish even for a tank of that size so it is :-O
It is suggested that you take the lid off at night with your set-up but i understand you have jumper the Arwona being one. Do you have a possibility of drilling a few holes in the top ?
May a suggestion to get a small wave maker or pump for the surface to break it.
I would strongly advise cleaning the substrate as Oscars alone are messy eaters.I know you have cat fish but they wont always get everything.I am not sure how you have a snake head in there because they usually eat everything in site once it can fit in there mouth.I would remove it if anything first.
Another but of advice would be throw out the strips there are useless no offence.
Buy your self a good test kit best investment you will ever make.
Keep me post as to how it is going for you.
A video of the tank or a few pictures would be great if you had some time
Always nice to see a nice big tank
No worries about Norway i am Irish no matter where i am living i will never forget or give that up
Watch the catfish when big and they will get huge they eat anything they took a whole tank of fish on me

hi IRISH ceech maybe ill just wait till the TSN get bigger and let them sort out the over population . as for the snake head she is a bit aggressive but most fish in the tank are way outside her bite size, thats her in my avatar pic so you can see she is a really beautiful fish. a wave maker or small pump is really a good idea, but as i already have a 5ft sump open to the air it should be ok for the OA system. a good substrate is long over due so i better get my ass in gear and sort that out. as for pics and video, watch this space

Paulv, I could only do a bit of help here as I'm still recovering (with difficulty) from a severe case of food poisoning.

That's a fair mix of odd-balls you have.
My first thoughts are......ummm.....the bit that every fishkeeper loves to hear but their OHs don't: more fish tanks.

I wonder if mixing up someone from Sweden and Finland is worse than Norway and Finland

ian

Its actually mixing swedish and norwegian that hate to be mixed
Hope you recover food poising is a nasty thing.
I know it be hard to get rid of fish you really do get attached.

Can you put up a pic of the tank my money is on to much bog wood my tap water is 7.4 and deliberately adding to much bogwood I got my water to 5.5 for my rams and only doing small water changes every two weeks

Ian im sorry to hear your sick and food poisoning is realy nasty, wish you a speedy recovery., its a very odd ball collection of fish sure but i had problems stopping myself buying or swapping fish from other members here. i started out with a theme tank, south american cichlids but it seemed to grow and grow . i do have a lot of roots and bog wood but as i have large predatory fish i need lots of hiding, escape places for my smaller pictus and syno cats. in fairness to my OH there are 6 of us living in a small 3 bed house so the fact that i have a monster tank at all is credit to her . thanks to every one that replied to this post and i now know what has to be done to stabilize the ph and kh in the tank.

heres a few pics of the tank. sorry for the crappy quality.

yet more pics.

not finished yet.









whatever ye may say about OA good or bad, as ye can see by my fish they are all healthy with good color and big appetites.