Suspiciously good Water Quality !

Hi folks,
I've got a 260l new tank with a Fluval external filter. I stocked it with 2 Mollys & 2 Platys to start and have gradually increased to 20 Cardinals, 1 Algae eater, 1 RTBS, 4 Endler (& 12 Molly fry).

I treated it heavily with the Tetra start-up product and have added Nutrafin cycle and Aquaplus as the stocking levels increased. I've only done 2 x 10% water changes and haven't cleaned the filter yet.

During all of this, 4 Cardinals, 3 Endlers & 2 Platys have died, but no fish have shown any signs of illness before disappearing / dying.

I've check the water parameters regularly, every day after adding fish.

Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate are all reading zero on every test.

Is there any chance my test kit isn't working? Even with the filters working perfectly shouldn't I be seeing nitrate rise by now?

Thanks for any advice,

Jim.

How long was your tank established before you added the fish ?

about 10 - 14 days.

Its filled using well water, so no chlorine or chloramines or any metals etc.

I knew I was starting it early, so put in more than enough Tetra start, watched chemsitry every day and only stocked with Mollys to begin with. Mollys gave birth within days and they & their fry seem to be doing great.

I always get 0 Nitrites and ammonia but always get a nitrate reading of some kind never been 0. Reading your post it seems all is going well, new fish are added and deaths follow on shortly after that. FYI not nitrates in a non planted I find a breeding cage full of riccia in the corner is a great Nitrate scrubber.


I would think with a lack of any other evidence that a new arrival has caused your woes by bringing in a parasite or disease.

Have you been testing your PH ;evels, sudden drops of more than a point are very stressful and possibly deadly to your poor auld fish.

Any new ornaments added close to time of deaths?

Increasing stock should only be done by adding a minimum amount of fish depending on your tank size. It is not adviseable to pop 20 fish in and treat the tank with a cycling product, I admit I have never done this so I cannot tell you how it is impacting your aquarium.


Mark

Lads whats more important to test for nitrates or nitrites? Gerry

Nitrites are lethal at even low levels where as Nitrates are not.

Jay

Mark, you are right in that in a established tank your nitrite and ammonia should be zero, but in a cycling tank you should get readings for both ammonia and nitrite as the tank cycles.
What is the pH of the water ?

No new ornaments, but some new plants which came with abundant snails

ph is 7.

Seems pretty clear that regardless of anything else, the test kit is banjaxed.
I'll get a new one today and do a bigger water change.

Many thanks for all the advice folks! I'll let you know what the results turn out to be with another kit.

sorry Mark, as regards planting - I should have added - tank is heavily planted with Valliseneria, Java Moss, Java Fern, Indian Fern, Cabomba, Amazon Swords, and a small grass-like plant I've forgotten the name of.


Jim.

what temp is the tank ? are the fish gasping at all ?

Hi Damian - temp is 25-26 degrees with the heater unplugged (lights seems to be keeping the temp up).

no gasping or flicking or any signs of distress. In fact, the cardinals have filled out and coloured up, as has the RTBS. Molly fry are growing quickly - 12 out of about 25 survived in the open tank with just plants for cover.

The fish you have mentioned particularly the livebearers can be very delicate due to inbreeding. Cardinals also tend to take some time to adjust to new surrounding with the inevitable few bound to succumb to the stress they have endured before they have even reached your tank. Don't be an alarmist,
but check your water parameters weekly for the time being. If your nitrites are reading zero, just do 20-25% water changes weekly. If you do more regular water changes all you will be doing is taking 'the good stuff' out and not to mention the big syphon freaking the fish and adding to their problems.


Dave

just a quick question, do you plug the heater in when you knock off the light? you should really leave it on, they knock off at the right temp

id check that thermometer. the lights wont keep the water at 26 degrees,
phil

Jim,
Whereabouts are you. When things settle down I'll give you some endlers if you you like to replace the losses

i think pkearney may be correct. Presuming you are in Ireland there is no way lights will keep you tank at 26. I rule now(after losing several fish due to a dodgy thermometer) is to keep 2 thermometers one digital one glass. Also you should never turn off your heater. As the temp cools at night the temp is the tank is probably dropping.

pkearney wrote:

id check that thermometer. the lights wont keep the water at 26 degrees,
phil

Definately a problem. What may keep the tank temp up is the current warm weather, but maybe to 20-22 degrees, hard to see the tank staying at 26 degrees, though I am not doubting just make sure this is correct and constant at both ends of the tank.
If it is indeed 26 during the day then the heater will stay off until needed, a quick test is to pop the heater on set to 25 degrees, if it comes on then your tank is below the desired temprature.


Mark

Folks,
thanks for the mnay comments / feedback.

My last post might have read better as "EVEN with the heater unplugged"

When I set it up, I set the heater to 23c. It went up to 27/28 over the next few days. As it was a new heater and hadn't been tested before I unplugged it just in case the thermostat was stuck on. I have plugged it back in since, but I haven't seen it turn on since I first filled the tank.

Dave - I have restricted water changes to 10% and am using the output on the external filter to take the water as I dont think the gravel needs cleaning yet. You are probably right about expected losses amongst the Cardinals. And if I'm being honest, the Platys probably weren't in great shape in the first place, but I didn't notice that until I got them home.

Phil - I checked the water temp with two different types of thermometer and I still hven't seen the heater come on, even with the lights out. Unless the indicator light on it has stopped working, I cant think of anything else keeping the temp up.

Sincgar - many thanks for the offer - thats really very kind of you. I'm based near Rathcoole, but spend most of my time in Dublin.

MArk - good idea - I'll try that with the heater and see if it comes on.

Many thanks to you all

Jim.

The weather is pretty good at the moment, and it would take a 260 litre tank some time to cool down at night (if it reached 26 in the day).

Although the heater should be switched on, I don't think that this (at this time of year in a fairly big tank) is really the problem (and could even be a red herring in sorting out a problem).

I would find zero ammonia AND zero nitrite AND zero nitrate top be a bit unusual.
But, the test kits available off-the-shelf for ammonia are not as accurate as the best test reagent (but it is too dangerous for normal shop-purchases).

What I'm interested in is the pH......pH 7 was cited I see.

pH of 7 is always a bit of concern to me. If I wanted a tank at 'neutral' then I'd really make it a tad acid or a tad alkaline.

wrt Day and Night changes.....maybe the pH is something that needs looking at.
Have you checked the pH over various parts of the day (with and without lighting)?

Also....well water? is the well treated with anything (eg lime)? (not that that in itself is a bad thing, but it may have an effect on the pH).

Now, if your pH reading is false and the actual pH is such that your fish are suffering ammonia poisoning through prevention of ammonia excretion then that would also explain lowered water ammonia (possibly), if you see what I mean.

ian

Hi Ian,

I bought a kits with Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and Ph all in one. I'll go out today and see if I can get something better / different and try testing. I didn't know ph would have such an effect on fish exctretion.

There's no lime added to the well - the water is actually high in lime (Very hard),iron, maganese and a few other things before its treated. It actually goes through a fairly big water softener before getting to the tap, which is probably why the ph is 7, as it has probably been calibrated to do this.

everything is really pointing to needing a different test kit . .

Thanks,

Jim.

Hi John,
the test kit is the Nutrafin Mini Master - all bottles of chemicals and test tubes - no dip strips.

I didn't know that the commercial water softener would cause a problem - if this is true then its extremely bad news for me. I was going to get a tap installed before the well filtration, so I could use the hard water for African cichlids, but wouldn't suit my community tanks.

I'll go google the subject and see how much trouble I'm in.

thanks again.

Jim.

I looked it up - the water softener replaces calcium ions with sodium ions, which doesn't really make it soft at all. The addition of sodium probably won't so my blood pressure any good either - so thanks for the warning.

I typed this reply up in Word before posting....and see that some additional posts have been made regarding the water softener (but I'm not goig to change what I wrote in word ).

Yep. pH is important to an extent much much further than simply ‘the right pH’.

There is often a focused impression that alkaline or acid conditions may ‘burn’ fish……if that is the case, then it goes much further.

pH alters the chemistry and chemical reactions of the water and the chemistry and physiology of the fish as well.

The effects on ammonia exchange or other gaseous exchange is all to do with the effect of pH on the equilibrium of a reaction (or other chemical or physical change) and on change in shape and function of such things as proteins.

Changes in pH are natural for many control normal functions, and are greatly exploited by living organisms…..but some functions are changed in a damaging way.

Water softeners……I would have aired the same caution as JohnH on that…..but it does depend upon the type of water softener.

Some water softeners are single ion exchange resins….and what they may do is simply substitute divalent ions (eg Calcium and Magnesium) in the water with monovalent ions (eg Sodium). Hence, the output water would be higher in sodium (and if the input are ‘water hardness’ salts such as calcium chloride or magnesium chloride then the output would be double the concentration of salts in the output water).

If the water softener is a de-ioniser then that is even more worrying as that will leave the water is a potentially unstable condition for fish.

But without further info on the exact conditions…..I can only speculate on any specific body of water.

Test kits.....there are a variety of test methods for ammonia. The best is pretty dangerous to use.
I'm not too sure if electronic ammonia testing systems are available in aquatic shops yet.....but if they were then they would be pricey (I guess, as I don't actually know).

Ian

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply Ian.

One quick question to bring the conversation full circle: Would this addition of sodium in the well water effect the results of the freshwater test kits?

Lastly - would the replacement of calcium with sodium be a noticable change in water chemistry from the perspective of the fish - i.e. would moving them from a lfs with a mnuicipal water supply to my tank have caused enough stress to cause casualties?

Jim.

Jim wrote:

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply Ian.

One quick question to bring the conversation full circle: Would this addition of sodium in the well water effect the results of the freshwater test kits?

Lastly - would the replacement of calcium with sodium be a noticable change in water chemistry from the perspective of the fish - i.e. would moving them from a lfs with a mnuicipal water supply to my tank have caused enough stress to cause casualties?

Jim.

I'm taking this into a Word doc to read and reply....so I should be back later (my eye-sight is not great without expanding the fonts).

ian

I bought a new test kit, different brand, good for saltwater as well as fresh. Nitrates are still zero.

This means either:

a) theres someting in my water interfering with the tests.
b) I have magic water that makes nitrates dissappear.
c) I'm doing something wrong.

Will bring water to LFS tomorrow to get someone else to test it, just to be sure.