first sign of ammonia (Newbie)

Hi

So the 2 goldfish have been in the tank for about three weeks now and I have been trying to get the balance of starvation/overfeeding, initial advice was 2 flakes a day(they were sold in a bowl), now working on the 2 to 3 minute rule.

To the question, today is the first day I have not had a 0ppm ammonia test, its either 0.25 or 0.5. Nitrite 0.0.

I am doing weekly 10 to 12 litre changes(60l tank) How worried should I be on the ammonia level and at what level do I start to panic?

Thanks
Dec

Hi Dec,
Welcome to the forum.

Any non-zero reading for ammonia is a worry.

Depending on the temperature, pH and the type of test kit you have, the readings you state are 5 to 10 times the maximum concentration allowed even for tough fish.

Now, your fish may still be alive because of a number of things.

Test kits can be of 2 basic types:
a) one that reads Total Ammonia ie Ammonia (NH3) + Ammonium (NH4+); or
b) one that reads just Ammonia (NH3)

It is Ammonia proper (NH3) that is the big killer; ammonium (NH4+) is much much less toxic.

Now, if you have a test kit that measures NH3 and NH4+, then the proportion that is ammonia (NH3) is less in lower temperatures and lower pH.

Hence you test could be the first test kit (ammonia plus ammonium), and at lower temperature and acid pH the proportion of highly toxic NH3 ammonia could 1/2, 1/5, 1/10th, 1/100th of the total reading.

That could be one reason why your fish are still alive.
But, even so that is a dangerous place to be.

The other thing about goldfish is that they have quite unique brain biochemistry.....and have the ability to change their brain chemistry to survive conditions that would kill most other fish.
That does, however, put a stress on them.

It is their ability to do some pretty amazing changes in their brains that has meant they have been a commonly kept first fish in goldfish bowls, live in polluted waters, and gives them an ability to live in coldwater (they are not true coldwater fish).

What is happening in your tank is that the bacteria that convert ammonia to the less harmful Nitrites, and bacteria to convert the Nitrites to the much much less harmful Nitrates, have either not developed OR are not sufficient to cope with the tank. ie the tank is not mature enough.

If you don't have a filter system, then I'd recommend getting one. As you already have the fish, then buy some quick-start filter bacteria (you can get that from most fish shops).
What I would do, however, as a first port of call is get that ammonia reading to zero by using ammonia adsorbing resins (most fish shops sell that as well) as an emergency case (it is a tenner for 3 pillows...cheap enough).

Go steady with feeding during the first week (and maybe do not feed for the first few days); do daily partial water changes for a week if you have fish in an immature tank.

It will take a few days (a week maybe) for the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrites (nitrosofying bacteria) to get a colony going; it takes a lot longer (4 to 6 weeks) for the bacteria that convert Nitrites to Nitrates (nitrifying bacteria) to get a good colony. All that depends on the number of fish and how much they are being fed.

Ian

Forgot to say:
early signs in the fish of ammonia poisoning include:

tattered fins; gasping at the surface; extended gill; narcosis; and an early sign is skittishness.

It depends upon the fish and its particular sensitivity to ammonia.

Later signs include dead fish.

ian

Hi Ian

Thanks for detailed response. I have a aqua one master test kit not sure if this test type 1 or 2. I think they are a little skittish.

I will reduce food and add some bacteria I have some I got with the tank, I assume a little extra will do no harm.

I will take water sample to LFS for second opinion on reading and get ammonia absorbing treatment.

If you take a look at "they won't stay still" in introduce yourself section there I a pic attached.

The tank is a bit immature but thought this was better than a bowl. Oh And filter got first wash in removed tank water last Thursday.

Thanks again
Dec

Q_Comets wrote:

Hi Ian

Thanks for detailed response. I have a aqua one master test kit not sure if this test type 1 or 2. I think they are a little skittish.

I will reduce food and add some bacteria I have some I got with the tank, I assume a little extra will do no harm.

I will take water sample to LFS for second opinion on reading and get ammonia absorbing treatment.

If you take a look at "they won't stay still" in introduce yourself section there I a pic attached.

The tank is a bit immature but thought this was better than a bowl. Oh And filter got first wash in removed tank water last Thursday.

Thanks again
Dec

I saw "they won't stay still" thread title, but thought it might be about someone trying to photograph them.

I'll have a goo at that.

ian

I've just had a look at the pic on the other thread........from the picture I do not see anything that would make me instantly suspect any ammonia problems.

Fins look good (not frayed and upright); gills look good; no reddening of the fins or gills.

The most common ammonia test kits tend to measure total ammonia.
I will not put you through pain of directing you to a thread I did on ammonia calculations at different teps and pHs, but it may well be that you have a high total ammonia but that the pH and temperature have pushed the amount of free ammonia (NH3) towards being a low concentration.

Even so, it means that with a high total ammonia reading you are balancing on a knife edge if the temperature increases or the pH increases.

So...first port of call: 20=50% water change; ammonia adsorbing zeolites (very valuable stuff); reduce feeding; when ammonia level is low, then add filter seeding bacterai; and still reduce feeding for a while; maintain proper regular water changes.

If you did a water change to bring it down to acceptable safe levels, then you would need to change between 50 and 52 litres of water for your tank (as it is probably only about 55 litres of water).....I recon leaving your fish in 2 litres of water during the water change might be asking too much in one go. !!
Hence. why I recommend using the ammonia adsorbing stuff as the first option.

ian

Thanks again for very through answer and for following up

quote
I saw "they won't stay still" thread title, but thought it might be about someone trying to photograph them

you are correct, it was a photographing reference. This was put up before I got your answer when I was just a little concerned not (

Just to ensure there is no misunderstanding the level was 0.25ppm to 0.5ppm I'll get my missus(not so colour blind) to clarify later.

I know I have read the level should be zero but as the test kit goes up to 5ppm I thought I was in keep an eye on it territory not I'm killing my fish territory.

Just goes to show information is not knowledge.

Thanks
Dec

Hi

Couldn't get zeolite at LFS but daily water changes and reduced feeding has got the ammonia level down.

Will look for zeolite on-line to have around for any future issues.

Didn't want to use ammo lock or similar as ammonia would still be showing in testing, how do you know what is happening in your tank if you use something like ammo lock?

I am assuming zeolite absorbs all the ammonia and not just the toxic bit.

Thanks
Dec

Fluval and JBL do it.
Pet Stop and MaxiZoo even sell the fluval.

It is better to get a false 'High' reading than to have an actual high reading. Ammonia locking liquid chemicals just give false high readings.

The zeolites will remove ammonia.

The way your tank works is by a set or predictable rules.
At any given temperature and pH, the ratio of ammonia to ammonium in solution will always be the same.
If you remove some ammonia, then your tank will change to maintain the same ratio (but, remembering that ammonia and ammonium also affect pH !!).
So, if at a given temperature and pH you have 9:1 ammonia:ammonium, and you then remove all the ammonia then some ammonium will convert to ammonia so that you still have 9:1 ammonia:ammonium but the concentration of ammonia will be very small compared to the original.

Similarly, if you remove ammonium then some ammonia will convert to ammonium to maintain the ratio set by the laws of the universe at the temp and pH of your tank.

Therefore, which ever chemical species if removed directly by any zeolite it makes little difference in the end.

It is the same principle that will prevent a fish excreting ammonia from its body if the ammonia in the water is too high (unless the fish has a very rare thing that Mudskippers have....and none of your fish do have that).

ian

@ Ian : Quote "Therefore, which ever chemical species if removed directly by any zeolite it makes little difference in the end."

This talking in terms of ratio and not quantity ?
Just as every electron in the universe has it own unique value and has to adjust accordingly if one electron changes value ?

I must thank you again for detailed responses

Could you point me in the direction of the thread with the calculations for ammonia ratios, I'm sure I could do a spreadsheet of the levels and temps.

I would also like to know twhat my ratio is. I am begining to realize that I may have alot of work on my hands keeping a tank of 60l healthy and I don't want to have to starve the poor fish to keep the ammonia down.

Is additional filteration worth considering? I have an aqua one 102F(450L/Hr Max 75L) prehaps an upgrade to a 103F(960L/Hr Max 100L) or is that over doing it?

Thanks
Dec

@JustinK......second law of thermodynamics (dealing with the direction something changes...Le Chatelier's principle).
Ratios are the important thing to the chemical reaction/change; but concentration is important to fish.
The quantity comes in when looking at the quantity in a given volume.

@Q_Comets..... here is the link (I've added a link to my google docs account where you can download the spreadsheet).

www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/fforu...a-calculation#127793

added aeration is always beneficial....not only do you need the aeration to increase the oxygen demand of the nitrosofying and nitrifying bacteria, but the agitation will also help dissipate ammonia.

In all honesty, one does not need to know all this chemistry to keep fish. What knowing it does do is to give a better understanding of how a tank works, and potentially solving problems when things go wrong.

Good old-fashioned fish-keeping of not over stocking, not over feeding, maturing a tank, and doing regular quality changes beats knowing the chemistry hands-down.

ian

did i just find the only other person on the forum that may appreiciate my up/down/left/right comet humour

Thanks

Using spraybar at the moment, the venturi does not fit with the duckbill or spraybar. The venturi on its own seems to cause alot of current.

Maybe I'll add an air stone for a little extra aeration.

cheers
dec