***LFS Problems***

We have all had our fair share of problems with the local fish shop and keepers.Unfortunately this forum is not the place to talk about them.A few people have mentioned "The Law and liable etc etc" but one fact is being overlooked here.We the hobbyist are all in the same ship.We help each other by giving opinions and advice about the hobby.


If advice so happens to be letting someone know a certain shop sells poor quality fish in their opinion (most people on this site can class themselves as moderate to expert in regard to fishkeeping) no law is being infringed upon.I mentioned this earlier on,the internet is a public domain on which opinions can be voiced under certain restrictions,something such as organising negative action against a company isnt acceptable.I dont think that is ever going to happen,worst case is someone is going to say "dont buy any tropheus from wherever because they all have fin rot or whitespot etc etc,I saw them last week and they looked in poor health".No laws are being broken there.Just as some shops get positive posts the flipside should follow on,poor shops should be named and shamed.

That is how this hobby and trade will improve in Ireland.It is down to us,if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.Just be sensible about it.This is not a rallying call,I want to remain part of this forum and I will play by whatever rules are put down.One thing though,I dont care if LFS sponsor prizes on this site and give discounts,facts are facts and threats should not be made to silence the truth,which needs to be told in order for this hobby to grow,which it is at a huge rate of newcomers most of which are total beginners.Who usually get misinformed ripped off and left out of pocket,we all did at some stage and I for one dont want to see it continue.

I agree, general censorship should not be extended to opinions about lfs.
However, we do not own the forum, and the person that does makes the rules and we all have to play in his garden.

For now I reckon if a certain shop has p1ss poor attitude then we should be broadcasting it, (like you said, its the only way to improve the hobby), so we could do it by PM until the censorship is rethought.

Your spot on there didihno.The person that makes the rules has to create a balance between the 2 sides (LFS trade/customer).I just want people to know that if they do name a LFS and give an account of what happened (good, bad or indifferent), no laws will have been infringed upon,and I say this having studied Law.
The owner of the forum is not responsible for what other people type.He is responsible for laying down ground rules and deleting unsuitable posts.Therefore a protocol as you rightly mentioned needs to be established.

I agree with all of the above comments, the only thing is we live in a slighlty dishonnest world. Whats stopping an competitor that is businness near the so called bad shop, and lets say the so called bad shop is 4/10 and the compeitor is a 5/10 (he should be a 9/10 but he is not) his email addresse is This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. all he has to, do is set up an new email lets call it This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. the join this forum, wait24 hours to get access code form the admin of the site, then start talking rubish.
The rubish could be. Say there is 12 shops in Dublin (for example), lets make a new forum, voting the best 10 shops, technically they are not naming the bad shops, but of course they are naming the worst 2, and at the same time saying there shop is a 9/10 , when quite clearly it is not.
I think at the monthly meetings it ok to run down a shop as you will know its more likely to be a creditable point from someone you know is a hobbist and nothing is put in writing. Whats Derek Doyles views on this?

The internet is a great tool for expressing opinions and we are lucky to have it. However it also makes it too easy for people to express an opinion as they are somewhat anonymous as opposed to saying it face to face.
With this in mind you end up seeing comments from people who normally would be silent. Now, bear with me on this, this is a brilliant opportunity for the people of the world to be heard in a situation where they might not normally have the courage or confidence to speak up but it also lends itself to comments that are not entirely true and therefore easy for those with nothing better to do than cause trouble.

It is my understanding that legally you are obliged to,in the first instance, give the shop the opportunity to make amends before you go anywhere else with your problem.`

Main point here is that this is NOT the place for complaints about lfs's until you have first complained to the shop in question. I get the impression that in most cases the first point of complaint was here.
They are not telepathic and how can they correct an error if they are not aware of it in the first place. Complain to them first and don't join the band of cowards by starting here.

OK that's my Sunday morning rant over..... wonder who is off the fags for 4 days now.......!

Processor (who is not a shop owner but a hobbiest not at all in the busines)

It is my understanding that legally you are obliged to,in the first instance, give the shop the opportunity to make amends before you go anywhere else with your problem.`

This statement is irrelevant.You will not win.
How about this case,you buy 10 neon tetras to add to your tank of 5 discus.You have a fairly busy week so dont have much time to examine your fish.On Sunday morning your fish are swimming belly up,Discus and all.If you go back to the shop they may refund you 10 tetras but where will the discus be,in your wheely bin.Fact.
The LFS is responsible for selling a contageuos fish with white spot etc etc.The LFS is responsible for 5 discus dying.The LFS is not going to refund you 5 Discus if you bring them in a bag and explain the events.Possibly in a ideal world!

Main point here is that this is NOT the place for complaints about lfs's until you have first complained to the shop in question. I get the impression that in most cases the first point of complaint was here.
They are not telepathic and how can they correct an error if they are not aware of it in the first place. Complain to them first and don't join the band of cowards by starting here.

Call us what you want,but we are willing to do something to help others,us cowards.I have actually went to a particular LFS with a complaint and was laughed at and told "thats not my problem".A quick verse from the Consumer Credit and the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act changed the tone and I left with a big grin and what I went in for.

Very few cases are in favour of the consumer.One timeI was told well your water must be poor quality because our fish are all healthy and uninfected,as we stood by a tank of white spot infected mollies(no LFS is immune to this,and so cant make this claim).Alot of LFS treat for WS but dont eradicate it,so you buy a clean looking fish but the tomites are in the water,hey presto 2 days later,medication time.

Just to reiterate the point,in most cases you dont have a case to argue with against a LFS over poor quality fish.We have all tried complaining and it didnt work for a long time for me (not that it happened regularily).I now know most people in the LFS's (I only go to top class ones) so I think they would believe me with a genuine complaint and come to some compramise.But what about the newcomer,they are sometimes sold uncompatable fish,hybrids the whole lot.Alot of the time its too late by the time they realise,or they are too far out of pocket.

My neighbour tried to keep mollies and swordtails for 2 months and spent over €120 on medication and €200 on replacing fish.The guy in the LFS sold him everything going,but never thought to go through the nitrogen cycle,cleaning of filters etc etc.He just saw a moose with no knowledge and loaded him up with the old "this will sort it out and its only €12.The guys tank never cycled,therefore was stuck in between toxic states because once a batch of fish died filters were turned off,a few days later new fish and meds were added and started again.

Now processor,explain to me how this guy could go to this LFS 2 weeks later and complain.This guy should have known about the nitrogen cycle but was not obliged to.However the LFS was knowledgable in the area and still sold incorrect items.So off I go to join up with my band of cowards.

.So off I go to join up with my band of cowards.

Jesus Christ Chris. Remind me never to piss you off. I agree that we should name and shame..but things happen behind the scenes in shops that customers don`t know about. Airlines coming loose, filthers not working. People will jump on the bandwagon and slate every shop bar their own and that is a dangerous thing.

More later cooker just blew up.

I feel sorry for the absolute beginner, I think apart from the so call bad shops they will get bad advice, not only from the worst shops, but from the vast majority, to mature a tank they will say wait a few weeks or "buy the bacteria in a bottle", when was the last time you would see a fish shop say, "just wait a minute I will just give you for free some 6 month old filter wool full of gunck with will by pass the NO2 peak? There used to be a shop in Dun Laoarire (when is the site admin going to have spell check software! I know I have spelt it wrong but dont have the time to look up a map to spell it right!!), any way getting back to this shop it used to be open in the 80s and the owner ran it his name was Ian it was call the aquaria, and he use to get decent advice, I think to have a good shop the owner should behind the counter, the big stores are only as good as the worst employee.
If they must have employees they should do a 2 year fish keeping course at Sparsholt college in Hampsire, I did the 3 year fishfarming course there, but I talked to the students that were on this fish keeping course about the course, I feel this side of the adlantic is the best place to train these shop keepers

When i first started i got a TropiQuarium55 from my lfs. He told me to get food, safe guard and safe water. He told me to set the tank up when i got home and come back to him later to get some fish. I did, all the fish i got (6) all died in 6 days. I went back up a week later and he said there was something wrong with my water. This went on for 2 weeks, and 15 fish later one of my friends said that i had to let the tank cycle for 2 or 3 weeks. The only thing i use my lfs for is filter sponges. This leaves me stuck as i have to travel to get any fish.

I know exactly what you are saying Anto but you wouldnt sell a customer poor fish if you knew it was stressed from lack of oxygen due to an accident or whatever like you mentioned earlier on.You would tell the customer you would hold onto the fish until it was ready and unstressed.

We don`t sell any fish that are sick.
If there is a problem with a tank then we treat the tank and usually mark and x on the front so others will know its now a hossy tank.
I do only be there every second weekend but the shop has vastly improved.(not saying I had anything to do with it.)

Here is what I hate...
This b***h comes into the shop and all the lads hide. If she collars one of them they pawn her off on me. There is no talking to her. All her fish keep dying.
She told me her problem and I offered her a solution. It was something basic she was doing wrong I can`t remember. She told me I was wrong and that she was told different by another shop. I told her what she was told is killing her fish. She still insisted I was wrong. I spent 10 minutes explaining what was happening to her fish. She was adamant that the other dude who gave her the stupid information was right.
Thats why your fish are dying, your killing them. I wanted to kill her but 10 years in mountjoy over a fish was not worth it.

To this day her fish keep dying and she still listens to this other shop and kills her fish every week. What a t**t. :roll:

It is my understanding that legally you are obliged to,in the first instance, give the shop the opportunity to make amends before you go anywhere else with your problem.`

Its just my understanding of the situation Chris and just how is the statement irrelevant?
I think it's relevant because if you wanted to take an action against a shop then this is what you must do first. Unless you are going to join the cowards and complain here first that is.
Read my post again.
Any shop with perfect water is still importing to its water from outside sources. Importing various fish and plants and there is only so much they can do to make sure everything is as good as their setup is but shit happens to everyone.

you buy 10 neon tetras to add to your tank of 5 discus.You have a fairly busy week so dont have much time to examine your fish.On Sunday morning your fish are swimming belly up,Discus and all.If you go back to the shop they may refund you 10 tetras but where will the discus be,in your wheely bin.Fact.

Now this is irrelevant....too busy... C'mon Chris your talking Discus. Fact.
I don't profess to being an expert as I have only one years experience fishkeeping but I am not into Discus as I understand they take a fair bit of care so I am not the right person for that job. But in fairness if this is true Chris then surely you wouldn't lump in your 10 new Neons straight away without quarantine. Particularly when your talking about Discus for God's sake.

Complain to them first and don't join the band of cowards by starting here.

The cowards in question are people- not just here but all over the world/internet - who shoot first with cheap shots before getting their facts right. Be they facts on other people,businesses or products or services.I have seen peoples business being terribly damaged by gobshites who because they have a certain degree of anonymity think they can say what they like regardless of the consequences and bollocks to the rules and so what if the guy goes out of business and ends up committing suicide I got my 5 mins of fame on the internet so f*** him.
They are the cowards Chris.
Not people who complain to the lfs. Not people who quote chapter and verse of the Consumer Credit and the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act because they are pissed off -and rightly so.

I was sold 2 puffer fish to go with my tank. My poor Dollars were bald and shivering in 2 days time. No joke.
I went back with the fish and got a full exchange. Needless to say never went back to the shop again.
Let's reverse the roles :
I think if I were the lfs and saw a post here ridiculing me and my business and then afterwards the 'coward' came in with his 2 puffers I'd shove them where the sun don't shine and drop kick his arse into oblivion the little prick.

I'd want a customer quicker than I'd want a sale.

So off I go to join up with my band of cowards.

Well off you go then and join them Chris but you don't belong with them because they won't complain as you did and they can't spell 'consumer affairs' not to mention understand any of it or indeed any reasonable method of communicating fairly with people.

Now processor,explain to me how this guy could go to this LFS 2 weeks later and complain.This guy should have known about the nitrogen cycle but was not obliged to.However the LFS was knowledgable in the area and still sold incorrect items.

The guy can obviously go back and complain. And yes both you and I and everyone here know that he will get no satisfaction whatsoever but the point is that- like it or not- he MUST go back and complain if he is to do anything about it as the shop MUST be given the opportunity to make ammends.

Jeeez. You off the fags too Chris ??

Processor

I'd agree John. It would be ideal if the lfs quarantine each consignment and also the fishkeeper before adding to their tank. I'd even say that sometimes this actually happens but let's face it in reality it wouldn't all the time.
I feel sorry for the Lfs for several reasons.
One because they keep their fish (and I am speaking about the majority)in near perfect water and customer comes in and buys a fish and puts it in either crappy water or half decent water or perfect water but the parameters differ to the Lfs so fishy might get upset and die anyway.
Point is that the fish's environment is changing and the poor bugger has probably travelled a couple of thousand miles already and it's just the last straw for him no matter what we do.
As Anthony described earlier about the nice customer who is always right -my arse- but he has to maintain that attitude because otherwise he could be reading on the internet how crappy his shop is and how rubbish he is himself.
I'm sure Anthony gets days when he says 'ah sod it why should I bother' because the customer is going to bugger it up anyway but he can't cos he still has to sell fish and supplies and while it may take along time to get a customer it takes just 2 seconds to lose them.
(I'm assuming from reading between the lines that Anthony works in a LFS. Apologies if I am wrong but the point still holds).

I go to a shop in Drogheda where they will give me 7 days warranty and they won't sell me a fish with whitespot or anything else they are aware of. But they can not be aware of everything yet on this forum someone slated a shop in 'the louth area' and if I didin't know better I would have thought it was this shop in Drogheda and that would have been one less customer .Yet it still could be this particular shop but as the 'slater' wasn't having a good day he decides to fire his cheap shot and tarnish the reputation of a GOOD shop because the 'slater' doesn't know any better.

Sorry John I just realised how much I'm going on... a bit wound up on this one but I do feel strongly about it. Wouldn't you hate to be a LFS dealing with what they have to deal with.

Processor,John to be honest I read the first 2 lines of your threads and realised straight away it wasnt worth reading IMO.You guys are just bitching,if you dont like what I say c'est la vie,but dont start preaching to me.I never kept discus before,I was only making a point.If you actually understood my thread you would realise BEGINNERS dont always realise you have to quarantine new fish,come on guys,work with me here.Anyway,Im getting off this topic,I have my points to make and will stand by them,and I wont stand there and be picked at by the like of yourselves,like I said before if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.You obviously dont give a shi* about expanding this hobby and makng it professional.To me the key is getting new people involved and educated ASAP before they get turned off like so many 100's of people do every year,due to poor LFS's.

I am almost scared to post a reply as it seems to be getting a bit of a slagging match, I do not want to take sides, but we have to be realtic
importers, wholesalers and retail cannot afford to quratine, as it would not be cost effective (based on my experince of working in all of these segments), what they all do, however is when they get a tank of bad fish lets say 20% are D.O.A then once tanked then a few die every day in a tank, then that would get a brown packing tape stuck diagonally across the tank, and it would not be "fished" till there were no more morts for 5 days running.
If a shipment of 40+ boxes, 39 would be considered healthy and would be fished out the next day till all the fish were used up. You may not agree even with that, but most importer know alot about fish health. e.g Exwil the biggest exporter of fresh water fish in the U.S (Tampa Florida would use a secret chemical that was dripped or dose pumped into their masive 1 hectar holding tank system, this chemical was call "supershit" as not to give away the secret ingreedent (sodium chloirite) chlorine based chemical which at the right dosage would STOP the spread of most disease , it worked on all freshwater except afican chilids which were CONTANTLY giving a 50% of the normal doase of copper and formalin, In Neil Hardy Aquatics in London, where I also have worked they had a similar system, and they supplied the finiest quality african fish, they would never dream of shipping a sick fish even though it was not quaratined, if only the shops had a 50% of the recommended dose of formalin in their tanks, REGARDLESS if the fish if sick or well, this would raise the quality. It has only just dawned on me, are they fish keeper s adding fish to their tank and not putting a 50% normall dosage commerically available white spot treatment, if so that is like going to a whoer house without condoms.
The botom line is always contiune for 7 days post adding any fish into an existing system regardless if freshwater or marine, with a well known product that has as part of its ingreedent malachite green and or formalin, this 50% of the remomended dosage will insure your are not at the upper limits for rams and cloan loach, for marine the same applies, but you cannot do it if you have inverts in your tank as the drugs will protect the fish but kill the inverts, although hermit crabs can take it, but they are exception to the rule.
If you dont agree fine let me know in English or Spanish, but not in French or Fxxx this Fxxx that, I will find it funny as I lived in Ireland for 8 years, a having a slagging match is having the crack and amusing, but for say the guy form the states thats in the forum I am sure he will think of joining a differnt forum as in the united stated carry on like that is a big taboo. no.

No problem Sean,we will go easy on the slagging.I think this topic is better off left alone now,we have all said what we want to say and it got us nowhere.Before an argument happens could an administrator lock this one up?

Chris my intention is not to slag and in my posts you will see that I have actually been praising your attitude with the LFS's.
I was merely exercising my opinion and defending what I saw as a sharp and challenging attack on my first post.

Time.

Processor.