one way of setting up a marine tank

there seems to be a lot more interest in marines lately so i thought this might interest people looking into marines. i tried putting it in the articles section but couldnt figure it out. dont be put off if it looks complicated, it becomes second nature in no time. sorry this turned out longer than i thought....and i left loads of stuff out!

there are many different setups, this is just one way, one that has worked well for me. while researching the different systems i decided not to go the whole hog reef system for a number of reasons, mainly space and cost. i did however want live rock and some easy to keep inverts. its also a good way the learn the ins and outs of marine husbandry. i got my information from a number of sources, mainly from a book the conscientious marine aquarist, asking simon in fishantics a million questions, and from various internet sources.

i decided to setup up a 240 litre tank using liverock as the only biological filtration, and made a list of what equipment and livestock to get.

equipment list
-aquarium and stand
-protein skimmer
-powerheads
-substrate
-live rock 30kgs
-heater
-salt
-dechlorinater suitable for saltwater
-new light tubes
-refractometer or hydrometer
-carbon (got a years supply cheap on ebay)
-container to age/mix water with heater and small power head
-cheap weighing scales for the salt
-qt tank with sponge filter heater etc


USE A QT TANK! its an expensive hobby, and if you use live rock you can not medicate your tank. some diseases will spread though your fish and kill them all. then you have to leave it fallow for 8 weeks before adding fish again, this is no guarintee it ll be completely gone so do yourself a favour
and use one!

If possible decide which fish you want to keep early on, and read up on them. some fish eat snails and crabs. some fish eat corals and featherdusters. some fish eat or attack or fish. avoid these problems by carefull planning and NOT making impulse purchases.

setting it up

- i added sustrate, filled the tank with water, and added salt. roughly 35gramms per litre. i used argonite for the substrate which clouds the water a fair bit initially so i left the tank run for about a week.

- i added my live rock. when arranging live rock its important not to pile it up like a wall. water and fish should be allowed to flow through it. i also decided i didnt want rock touching the glass so the flow around the tank would be better, and maintenance would be easier.

-i then left the tank to cycle. i left the lights off for this period as i didnt want nussiance algae to take over. after the tank had cycled i added a clean up crew of 12 turbo snails and 6 hermit crabs (now 18 snails and 12 crabs) and turned the lights on for 10 hours a day. the clean crew is essential to eat the nasty micro algae and allow the beautiful types of macro algae flourish.i also added a tiny sponge from a small filter to seed it for my qt tank.

-2 weeks later add your first fish to qt tank and leave it there for 4 weeks (ive taken fish out sooner but if you want to do it by the book its 4 weeks)
if the fish is in perfect health add it to your main system. if the fish didnt show any signs of illness you can then get your next fish and add directly to your qt tank. i like to have a small sponge in my main system at all times in case i need to qt something at short notice.

this takes patience but good things come to those who wait.

- i then added some soft corals/featherdusters etc. if i was setting this up again i would add them first.

maintenance is as follows

weekly
- test water (ph, kh, nitrate mainly)
- test salinity
- change 1 bag of carbon
- clean skimmer and powerheads
- clean glass (this is what takes the longest)
- top up water lost to evaporation (not much as its a closed top)
- change 10% of water (on a 240 litre tank this is just 1 large bucket ...really easy and fast)
- wipe down lights and hood

monthly
- clean live rock with small p head
- check and wipe clean electrical wires
- keep a log

13 months on and my nitrates are still at zero.<br><br>Post edited by: lampeye, at: 2007/07/13 22:45

Perfect if I may sayso. Well done lampeye great post.
I have given my fish a fresh water bath prior to quarinteen.
just to clear of any neg bacteria and white spot havent had any problems since also using a good Lfs helps .

Regards

Thank a million Lampeye.
I'm setting up the same tank as yourself currently. I was hoping just to use a smal amount of live rock stacked against the filter system to hide the black box. What do you think? You said not to build it up like a wall - how come? (I was planning on creating caves for the fish etc to swim through)
Also, you mentioned seeding \&quot;sponge\&quot;, I'm assuming you mean live sponge?

As for the qt tank - what size did you get? Did you need skimmers and all that jazz for this also?? If so, I may be getting over my head in cost.

To Paulm: When you say a \&quot;fresh water bath\&quot;, what exactly do you mean? (I assume it's not a quick run under the tap!!!)

no probs zulu,

most peoples reef tanks rely solely on the live rock to provide them with biological filtration. in order for this to be adequate alone you need to have a bare minimum of 1lb per us gallon. also because its like a big filter water needs to be able flow around it. thats not to say u cant build just not solid structures piled on top of each other. fish and inverts thrive with live rock systems like this, and your nitrates will be minimal.
if you go this route, which you kind of have to if you want a reef tank, normal filters are a bad idea = nitrate factory. i left my internal filter box in the tank but empty apart from 2 bags of carbon (i change one every week) for mechanical filtration. they are ugly yokes though so if i was doing it again i'd take it out and buy a small external for the same purpose.

for qt i have a 50 litre tank. no need for skimmers or jazz, unless you like chet baker! all you need is a simple internal filter, a heater and something to make the fish feel secure....pvc pipes or one piece of ocean rock (remove the rock if medicating as it absorbs it). no sand.

This was the sponge i was talking about. a small filter sponge, seeding it means letting bacteria colonise it so its adequate filtration for the qt tank.

freswater dips are a method of killing external parasites on fish. its done by getting a bucket with freswater of the same temp and ph of seawater, and placing a fish in it for a period of time. any marine book will have more info.

what kind of sand do u have?
argonite is excellent stuff , looks great, keeps kh up , expensive though. 40 squid a bag.

hope this helps

Interesting! How would you go about taking the internal filter out though - it's glued in no? I want to do that, but was afraid of breaking the glass.

I bought a sack argonite sand (still have to rinse it) plan was to do that this weekend. (Sorry what's kh?)

Thanks for your help lampeye!

carbonate hardness. sea water has a kh of 8 i think....the recommended is between 8-12. your salt mix will bring it up anyway , but with time this will drop and eventually cause your ph to drop.

the filter box is easy enough to take out . use a stanley blade. the yellow plastic one works best. the filter box is silconed ...well u sould be able to see where. slide the blade in behind it and use a sawing motion. be careful not to touch the silicone use to hold the tank together!

best advice i can give you is get that book! and take your time.

for flow id recommend 2 turbelle nanostream 6025. they are twice as powerful as most and use half the electricity.

Cheers. Well I mixed up the salt and washed the sand, and filled the tank. I didn't remove the internal filter, as I only taught of one thing as I was about to do it - the heater!
I have the standard heater the comes with the tank. It sits inside the internal filter, If I take out the filter, I'll need to buy a new heater no?

So I'm probably going to get the live rock this weekend. Do I need to get a protein skimmer and an external filter at this point also?

re heater. no . you just need clips with suckers on them. give it a few days and check your salinity...make sure its where u want it before adding live rock.

i would recommend a skimmer simply because when u see the crap they take out..... there are some that dont use them (eg platty252), mind u his tank is a reef tank with only 2 fish (an amazing tank at that).. so thats up to you. if you do have one in mind, google it to see what people think of them ....too noisy etc.

re if u need an external filter or not: that depends... if you want to have the live rock for filtration (a system ive found great) aand you plan on leaving your internal filter in, then no , u wont need one. if you decide to take the internal out then yes. but either way if you go for the LR as a filter then id remove all sponges from the filter.

so, if it were me and i was using the LR as filtration. id get about 5-600 quids worth. get it in one go, if you add it in bits it might not be fully cured and could cause an ammonia spike. anyway i'd put the live rock in and start aquascaping....and checking the ammonia/nitrite every few days. the aquascaping can take a while until you are happy! u should see some form of nitrogen cycle, but even if not, leave the tank alone for at least 2 weeks. the lights should be left OFF for this initial period. when your satisfied that the tank has cycled its time to turn the lights on and add some clean up critters to keep nuissence algae away. id say 12 turbo snails and 6 red leg hermits would be a good start....u can always add more at a later date...but they will keep it nice and clean.
note: acclimatise these very slowly using a clamped airline hose known as the drip method. also u dont want any lfs water in your tank so remove them by hand and place them in your tank.

u should setup your qt now so that 2 weeks after u add the clean up crew u can add your first fish. leave at least 2 weeks betwwen adding new fish....and QT!!!

theres more than one way to skin a cat but this was the method i used and ive never had any probs.

good luck with your new venture

fran

Ok, so I've decided not to remove the internal filter (although I've emptied it except for one new carbon filter to clear the water a little which I'll remove before putting in the LR).
So the internal filter + LR be ok for filteration? I fully intend on getting power heads + a protien skimmer after the LR is established.

One thing, you mentioned: \&quot;note: acclimatise these very slowly using a clamped airline hose known as the drip method. also u dont want any lfs water in your tank so remove them by hand and place them in your tank.\&quot; Do you mean to acclimatise the clean up crew? Also would you mind explaining what you mean by the \&quot;drip method\&quot; please, and what is lfs water?

Cheers!

Zulu wrote:

Ok, so I've decided not to remove the internal filter (although I've emptied it except for one new carbon filter to clear the water a little which I'll remove before putting in the LR).
So the internal filter + LR be ok for filteration? I fully intend on getting power heads + a protien skimmer after the LR is established.

The LR on its own will be great for filtration, provided you get enough of it, stock slowly etc. i was advised against leaving any sponges in as this will give you nitrates which are bad for corals and will cause nuissance algae if they are too high. the purpose of the internal box in my tank is just a place to run carbon and seed sponges for your QT tank (if u plan on QTing your fish, which u def should if u consider the cost in setting the tank up). i really regret not taking mine out as it takes up so much space and blocks the side view etc....if i was doing it again i'd def take it out and get a cheap external.

Zulu wrote:

One thing, you mentioned: \&quot;note: acclimatise these very slowly using a clamped airline hose known as the drip method. also u dont want any lfs water in your tank so remove them by hand and place them in your tank.\&quot; Do you mean to acclimatise the clean up crew? Also would you mind explaining what you mean by the \&quot;drip method\&quot; please, and what is lfs water?

yes to acclimative the clean up crew. the drip method is a slower, better way to acclimatise your new arrivals (fish and inverts) than the tradional \&quot;float the bag and add cup of water\&quot;. its done by getting some airline tubing (tubes for airpumps), and creating a siphon then clamping it so that the water comes out in drops, then placing the tube over the bag your fish come in (in a bucket) in until the water doubles in size, then pour out half, let it fill up again, repeat and u are good to go, your livestock has been acclimatised to any differences in the water make up of where they came from and your water. lfs = local fish shop

DONT wait until your LR is established to get your powerheads and skimmer. in order for the rock to work as a filter you should have a turn over of 10-20 times your tanks volume per hour. i.e. 240 litre tank should have a absolute MINIMUM of 2400lpr water flow. ideally your skimmer should be turned on the day u get your live rock.

i cant stress enough the benefits of a couple of good books for references and to have patience....good things come to those who wait!!

hope this helps

fran

Hey Lampeye, cured or uncured live rock? I'm hearing conficting advice... ie: uncured gives better bacteria, but takes longer to cycle. Cured gets the whole thing moving quicker.
What would you advise?

hard to say really. i got semi cured rock...i.e. some of it was cured , some of it was only half cured. it takes about four weeks i think to cure rock, and there will be a bit of die off in transpoting it so id say cured or nearly cured is best. where are u thinking of getting it?

I haven't decided just yet but the cheapest quote I'm getting is from Aquarium Solutions in Ashbourne, so they look like a winner. (There Aquatics-Kingdom) online are very cheap, but I'm not convinced about buying live rock on-line. It's probably grand, but...

So I'm getting over the protein skimmer and live rock hurdle, now the next step. I've bought the test kits (Salifert Ammonia Test Kit, Nitrite Test Kit, &amp;Nitrate Test Kit). I understand the process of the tank cycling, but how do I test for it? I hardly test every day for the ammonia spike etc.?

Well folks, moving along now. I've got the live rock into the tank on tuesday. And I got 2 powerheads, so it's starting to work out.
LFS tells me it ok to put 2 fish into the tank this weekend as it's cured live rock. What do you guys think, I know I should wait for 2 weeks, but would it be a disaster?

Also I'm hearing that hermit crabs are more sensitive to subtle changes in the water, so I shouldn't consider putting them in until after the fish and the tank has matured a little. Lampeye I know you put the clean up crew in first. Any opinions??

if i was u i'd leave the lights off and dont put anything in yet. test the water every 2 days for amonia and nitrite, even if its fully cured rock there may still be a die-off fron shipping etc. then i would advise adding a small clean up crew of 6 hermits and 12 turbosnails, this way nuissence algae will not have a chance to take hold. i would only add two fish if they are tiny....otherwise just add one at a time, 2 weeks apart. this is the way i did it and it worked out great, never had a problem with algae. but its up to u which way u decide to do things.

its sounds like you dont plan to quarintine, thats entirely up to you, i would strongly reccommend it. if you dont its a bit like russian roulette! you could be lucky but its an expensive hobby and you could lose a lot of expensive livestock and have to either leave the tank fallow (fishless) for 8 weeks or worst case strip it down and start again, just browse the fish disease sections of saltwater forums and u'll see some absolutely (avoidable) nightmares.

good luck

fran

ps which powerheads did u go for?

lampeye wrote:

if i was u i'd leave the lights off and dont put anything in yet. test the water every 2 days for amonia and nitrite, even if its fully cured rock there may still be a die-off fron shipping etc. then i would advise adding a small clean up crew of 6 hermits and 12 turbosnails, this way nuissence algae will not have a chance to take hold. i would only add two fish if they are tiny....otherwise just add one at a time, 2 weeks apart. this is the way i did it and it worked out great, never had a problem with algae. but its up to u which way u decide to do things.

its sounds like you dont plan to quarintine, ...

Hey Fran I was going to get a quarantine tank going, but figured this could be done a little later (after the first 1/2 fish went in) So I was going to set it up next week or there abouts.

As for the testing, I got the test kits, a will start testing today. How long will I need to do this for? 2weeks? or would one do it? Should I consider putting some of the clean up crew in this weekend - or am I just rushing things???

I'll get back to you on the powerheads - I can't think of the name just yet.<br><br>Post edited by: Zulu, at: 2007/09/14 21:00

Zulu wrote:

Hey Fran I was going to get a quarantine tank going, but figured this could be done a little later (after the first 1/2 fish went in) So I was going to set it up next week or there abouts.

As for the testing, I got the test kits, a will start testing today. How long will I need to do this for? 2weeks? or would one do it? Should I consider putting some of the clean up crew in this weekend - or am I just rushing things???

I'll get back to you on the powerheads - I can't think of the name just yet.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Post edited by: Zulu, at: 2007/09/14 21:00

re: testing, u need to do this until the tank has cycled...i.e there are no amonia or nitrite readings, when this happens you should also get a nitrate reading, then you are ready. dont put any livestock in the tank until this has taken place.

re: qt, thats up to you, like i said u could be fine, or your fish could come down with a disease like whitespot, or worse...if that happens where are you goibg to treat them? u cant medicate a tank with live rock.

re: powerheads. they say you should have a flow of between 10 and 20 times the tanks volume. so for a 240 litre tank that would be a (combined) flow of between 2400 lpr and 4800lpr (litres per hour). this is for your LR to function properly and also so theres no dead spots that nuissence algae love!

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you Lampeye, works been mental.
I got 2 maxi-jet 1200 which should turn over 1100 l\h, so I'm turning over 2200 l\h. A small bit off so I probably need another one.

I've been doing the tests and my ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, My nitrate has been 5mg/L for the last two weeks and hasn't changed.
Both Nitrite (0.01mg/L) and ammonia (&gt;0.25mg/L) have been minimal, but haven't changed. Any opinions?
Getting my qt tank this weekend, and hopefully some fish!

I`d lay of the fish for a while, at least until the nitrite and
ammonia are zero. You will get a spike with cured rock as Lampeye says, always die off in the rocks.

Cycling is a little slower in Marines than Tropical.
Patience is the key.
Those Salefert kits are not great and not that easy to use.
The nutrifin tests are the best IMO.

Yea I'm learning that the hard way - to be honest, the nitrite and ammonia could be 0 - it's not easy to be accurate at that point.
My live rock has been in there 2 weeks now, (it was cured) how long more am I looking at to be on the safe side?

It will still cause ammonia in your tank.
If the water is fine then add your first fish.

i disagree about the salifert test kits, once you get the hang of them they are excellent. the amonia kit will never show absolute zero. it shows the first colour but thats fine. the nitrite however should be at zero.... i.e. no colour.

try testing it again to see. IMO youd be grand to add the clean up crew now (if the nitrite is zero), say 12 turbo snails and 6 hermits. acclimatise them really slowly. and dont be suprised if you lose one or two snails, they are not great travellers. monitor the water and say 1 week later add your first fish. in a tank your size is only really suitable for small fish IMO. feed very little for the first few days, some fish wont even eat while settling in.

now is a good time to sort out your aquascaping. are u happy with it? is it secure? if not turbo snail s can cause landslides! much easier to sort this stuff out now.

Yea I'm happy out with the rocks and positions although I do need to buy some more. Somehow during my calculations I get my tank size confused. It's a 240lt tank, So I'll need another 6-8Kg of rock.
What's the story with adding more live rock after the initial batch - I understand it's not ideal, but is it a total disaster???

it s only if you have it stocked its a problem. if you had fish innit and then added new rock and there was an amonia spike you could kill your fish/inverts.

hows the tank going zulu?

Hi Guys.
Myself and Paulm did a little experiment.
We tested the same water with both Salifert and Hagen testers
and we got the same results.
Test carried out were Nitrite, Nitrate,Ammonia and Phosphate.

Hey folks apologies about not getting back sooner...

Well since last posting, I've the tank up an running now. The protein skimmer from the states was a winner. It's quite (but I can still hear it) and is clearing out a lot of gunk. The only worry is that it needs a transformer (the whole 110v to 220v), but it's all good.
I got live rock (but made a rookie mistake - did my maths wrong figuring I only had 120liters, rookie!) It's all taking off really well. The purple is growing very vivid, and I've noticed what I can only describe as tiny anomies (sp?) growing. Some of the rocks aren't showing much signs of life, so I've been adding magnesium, which has promoted this dark green on the rocks (but it doesn't look like alge) which I guess is a good thing???

Anywho, I've two juvie clown fish and two (cant think of their name but they sift the sand through their gillls).

I've a problem keeping the turbo snails alive - I've lost about 10, but the 4 ones alive are getting huge! ...and I've lost about 2 or 3 hermits, but the rest seem happy.

...so thats where I am. Looking to stock up some more, but I guess it'll have to wait until after christmas now.

Apologies again for the slow response. And thanks a million for your help - I'd have never got to this point otherwise - Thanks.

Have you tested your water to see why the Snails and Herits
are dying. That is a very bad sign.

Are these rock Anemones or Feather Dusters.
Are they a purple colour. If so get them out pronto. Rock
Anemones will spread right through your tank and you will
never be able to add any Corals as they will kill everything.
They are regarded as a very serious pest. Remove them before
they spread.

If in doubt fewk it out.

I've been testing it for nitrate/nitrite/amonia, and it's all gravy - is there something else I should test for? You have me worried now!

The rock Anemones are transparent, and hard to see. They are about no bigger than the nail on your little finger (biggest). I figured they were a good sign... So I'll start throwing them out then? How do I get them off the rock - is there a \&quot;correct method? or do I just pick them out??