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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)

Hi,

John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.

I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.

With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.

I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.

If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.

I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.

I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.

Thank you
Darragh Sherwin

holding yellow lab

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05 Feb 2008 18:26 #1 by stan (stan)
hi folks,

at what size do yellow labs generally start to breed.i am asking cause one of them seems to have developed a different mouth structure than the others. \"she\" is only about 2 1/2 to 3\" long. i was wondering if this was possibly because she is holding, so if anyone has pics of a yellow lab holding from a side view so i can compare it.

cheers folks

stan

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05 Feb 2008 18:42 - 05 Feb 2008 18:43 #2 by arabesque (Mick Veale)
hi stan

i google searched and found this
Last edit: 05 Feb 2008 18:43 by arabesque (Mick Veale).

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05 Feb 2008 18:47 #3 by stan (stan)
Replied by stan (stan) on topic Re:holding yellow lab
went to check that link in work and it turns out that google images are blocked and that i have been reported to admin for accessing the sort of stuff you shouldnt be viewing in work. :cheer:

cant wait to have to explain what a holdin yellow lab is to admion in the morning. i will have a gander when i get home.

cheers

stan

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05 Feb 2008 19:11 - 05 Feb 2008 19:18 #4 by tanks_alot (Denis Coghlan)
Hey Stan

Here are two photos of a lab that recently started to hold (onlt at egg stage). These snaps are from when I started to keep African cichlids. I was very surprised to see that they hold at such an early age and once they start they really don't stop.





And for reference sake here is a picture of the same fish when not holding eggs or fry




I will try and find a pictures of when the mouth is bulging with fry.

Regards

Denis

Lead me not into temptation, For I can find it myself!
Last edit: 05 Feb 2008 19:18 by tanks_alot (Denis Coghlan).

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05 Feb 2008 20:48 #5 by stan (stan)
Replied by stan (stan) on topic Re:holding yellow lab
happy days so, looks like the labs are breeding. thanks for the confirmation with those pics dennis. i wasnt expecting such a good quality and close up. i have only been keeping mbuna since november so i must be doing something right. is it worth taking her out of the tank. the only sparetank i have is about 10 gallons so will that be enough for the female

thanks again

stan

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05 Feb 2008 22:03 #6 by tanks_alot (Denis Coghlan)
In my personal opinion, if you are looking for a subject to learn how to bred and raise fish you cant go wrong with labs. The offspring are roughly about 10-15 for the first spawn and will increase there after. They are hardy and well developed when released or stripped from the mothers mouth and will take flake food almost immediately. I found it a very rewarding and educational process stripping, handling and growing on lab fry. But the down side is that you will find it very hard to get rid of them. I literally had to pay people to take mine away. For a fish that costs about 10-15 euro in a shop I find this very surprising!!

As for the holding female fish, I would always leave her in the main tank for three weeks after noticing she was holding. Then remove her from the tank, strip the fry using a toothpick and bowl of tank water. Once all the fry had been removed I would place her immediately back into the main tank, where upon she would be feeding again in a days time.

If you would like me to go into more detail about stripping and raising the fry let me know.

Regards

Denis

Here is a video of three batches of lab fry in the one tank.

Lab fry

Lead me not into temptation, For I can find it myself!

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06 Feb 2008 00:23 #7 by stan (stan)
Replied by stan (stan) on topic Re:holding yellow lab
nifty video dennis,
i noticed the holding within the last week so you reckon another 2 or so weeks before removing her.if you dont mind giving more info on the stripping and raising that would be great,. i take it a will need a bigger tank than a ten gallon to raise the fry.

top man dennis

stan

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08 Feb 2008 01:45 #8 by tanks_alot (Denis Coghlan)
Hi Stan,

Apologies about the delay in my reply. I will break this into three parts; the holding fish, stripping the fry and growing the fry on. If anyone would like to add a comment or two to this please feel free to do so as I am only talking from a minor amount of experience in stripping mbuna (about 20 times). In addition; I sold all of my mbuna last year so, there may be some new methods used that I may not be aware of!

The holding fish;

Mbuna will hold developing eggs for three to four weeks depending on the environment that they are in. In a highly stocked tank, I have found that females have a tendency to hold onto the fry for longer as a short of maternal instinct to protect them from being exposed to other larger fish in the tank. However, if you remove the fish and place them in a separate tank and in an agreeable environment the female may spit her fry voluntarily at an earlier stage.

If you do not wish for many of the fry to survive then I recommend that you leave the holding female in the main tank. If on the other hand you want to keep as many fry as possible there are two things you can do. Place the female in a separate tank on her own and wait for her to spit the fry naturally or remove the female and strip her immediately after three weeks. There are perks to both these methods but I have always favoured the latter.

Method 1 perks.
. You will be able to view the amazing ability of female mouth brooders in action.
. Less stress on the female (in terms of handling).

Method 2 Perks.
. You can gain access to the fry earlier and get them to feed on solids sooner.
. Less stress on a female fish being reintroduced to the main tank if she has only been gone for 10 minutes.
. Females can get back to feeding sooner.
. You know immediately how many fry you have to look after.
. I have always found stripping fry a great experience (sounds weird). If you want to get someone into fish keeping ask them to hold a torch while you remove fry from a mouthbrooder and they will be hooked for life.

Stripping the fry;

I would normally strip the fry between week three and week four. If you do it to early the fry will emerge still holding a large amount of their yolk sack. I normally wait for this to be gone as the fish are slightly larger, swim better and start taking solid food almost immediately. However, I have stripped fry still holding yolk but survival was still 100% its just that they didn't eat for a further 3-4 days.

Stripping fry for the first time is a nerve racking experience but once its done you can do it again no problem. The biggest challenge in my opinion is trying to strip the smaller species like Cobue or elongatus, the larger fish are easier as their mouth parts are more developed. To do this you will need the following equipment;

a medium to large size bowl (clean)
a toothpick
a torch
a large turkey baster
and someone to hold the torch and count

I will outline the procedure in point form;
1. Fill the bowl with tank water
2. Catch the female fish. Do this as quickly and as stress free as possible as holding females will often spit while being chased with a net.
3. Place her in the bowl of tank water (keep bowl very close to the tank)
4. Check the net for any fry that she might of spat while being moved
5. Make sure your hands are completely wet with the tank water and hold the fish gently while making a fist shape around her body under the water in the bowl.
6. Ask your assistance to shine the torch so you can see what you are doing (this is very important so you don't try and open her eye and not her mouth).
7. Use the very tip of the toothpick to gently pull down the lower jaw of the fish. Do not push down to far or you will damage the fish but make sure it is wide enough that the fry can swim out. Even if the jaw is only slightly open fry should be darting out for freedom.
8. If this is the first time the lab has spawned you should be looking at roughly 8-13 fry.
9. Some fry are really stubborn and will go out half way, then back in again, go out half way, then back in again....etc. but eventually they will go out.
10. To make sure that you have got all the fry extend the lower jaw and ask the assistance to shine the light in the mouth of the fish while you look in and you should definitely see if there are any left.
11. Once the fry have been removed do not place the female back in the bowl as she will busy herself gathering up her stolen fry. Put her immediately back in the tank. The female may look like she is still holding fry (and she could be) but the jaw will return to its normal shape in about a day.
12. As for the fry, use the large turkey baster (one at a time) to transport them from the bowl to a larger tank with the same temperature and water parameters as the main tank. Its best if you fill this tank with water from the main tank before the above operation. I would also recommend that you use a sponge filter for the first few days but due to the fact that they are so well developed a small pump filter can be used in about a week after.

I will continue the section on looking growing the fry on later,

Hope this information helps

Regards

Denis

Lead me not into temptation, For I can find it myself!

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