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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)
Hi,
John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.
I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.
With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.
I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.
If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.
I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.
I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.
Thank you
Darragh Sherwin
Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
- Jim (Jim Lawlor)
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01 Aug 2010 22:42 #1
by Jim (Jim Lawlor)
Haplochromis & Geophagus identification was created by Jim (Jim Lawlor)
Folks,
I've looking forward to getting a few of these cichlids this year, when I get a couple more tanks up and running.
When I saw the note from Fins, Furs & Feathers and that they had Haplochromis obliquedens, I decided to google it(I used to keep and breed these, or so I thought).
Depending on which site I read, these are extinct, were never in the hobby, were a specialist algae eater and that the name has been re-used for a whole range of different species OR they are a peaceful easy-to-keep good tank companion etc. etc.
Something similar goes for the Geophagus species - I had been looking at balzani, surinamensis and a couple of others, but depending on the website you look at, even the photos are of completely different fish.
Does anyone have recommendations on websites or publications for the definitive answers or at least the best source of reliable taxonomy / identification?
Many Thanks
Jim.
I've looking forward to getting a few of these cichlids this year, when I get a couple more tanks up and running.
When I saw the note from Fins, Furs & Feathers and that they had Haplochromis obliquedens, I decided to google it(I used to keep and breed these, or so I thought).
Depending on which site I read, these are extinct, were never in the hobby, were a specialist algae eater and that the name has been re-used for a whole range of different species OR they are a peaceful easy-to-keep good tank companion etc. etc.
Something similar goes for the Geophagus species - I had been looking at balzani, surinamensis and a couple of others, but depending on the website you look at, even the photos are of completely different fish.
Does anyone have recommendations on websites or publications for the definitive answers or at least the best source of reliable taxonomy / identification?
Many Thanks
Jim.
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- derek (Derek Doyle)
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01 Aug 2010 23:43 #2
by derek (Derek Doyle)
30 tanks specialise in african cichlids, angelfish and various catfish
Replied by derek (Derek Doyle) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
good point jim, there is so much confusion these days that it is impossible to say what any cichlid is for sure. the obliquidens name was applied to several fish from victoria and nearby smaller lakes which have not been available or popular for a few years. the main problem with victorian haps is the fact that females of different species can look very alike and they crossbreed readily. most of them are adult at about 3 to 4 inches and if kept correctly are about the same level of agression as malawi haps and not as tough as most mbuna.
if interested in keeping and breeding them i would advise making every effort to get pure bred stock.
the geophagus group is very complex with numerous species. difficulty of keeping, breeding behavior and agression and water parameters can be very varied. there are coolwater species from southern brazil , argentina and uraquay (such as balzani), warm water species such as suranamense and jurapari types and the medium sized tough and tolerant species (honda or braziliensis). among them are mouthbrooders, primitive mouthbrooders and substrate spawners. feeding method and diet is fairly similar in most cases.
anyway both victorians and eartheaters were very popular in the past and i would love to see a revival of interest in these fascinating fish.
if interested in keeping and breeding them i would advise making every effort to get pure bred stock.
the geophagus group is very complex with numerous species. difficulty of keeping, breeding behavior and agression and water parameters can be very varied. there are coolwater species from southern brazil , argentina and uraquay (such as balzani), warm water species such as suranamense and jurapari types and the medium sized tough and tolerant species (honda or braziliensis). among them are mouthbrooders, primitive mouthbrooders and substrate spawners. feeding method and diet is fairly similar in most cases.
anyway both victorians and eartheaters were very popular in the past and i would love to see a revival of interest in these fascinating fish.
30 tanks specialise in african cichlids, angelfish and various catfish
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- Jim (Jim Lawlor)
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02 Aug 2010 00:09 #3
by Jim (Jim Lawlor)
Replied by Jim (Jim Lawlor) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
Thanks for that Derek. I am hoping to keep and breed both of these, I intend to setup a 300l tank each for Victorians and geos.
This identification issue is fairly frustrating - It really peeves me to see "assorted cichlids" for sale - so many of them are clearly hybrids of all sorts. I recently saw the balzani for sale (not in FFF) but I looked it up online on my phone on the spot and the fish in the tank didn't match the photos.
As far as I can make out, the "obliquedens" I had was a species from one of the satellite lakes.
I'm determined to get the correct species, so I'll be patient. I used to be a member of the BCA who had some breeding programmes and kept track of the pedigree of captive bred cichlids, but I believe they've given up on it.
This identification issue is fairly frustrating - It really peeves me to see "assorted cichlids" for sale - so many of them are clearly hybrids of all sorts. I recently saw the balzani for sale (not in FFF) but I looked it up online on my phone on the spot and the fish in the tank didn't match the photos.
As far as I can make out, the "obliquedens" I had was a species from one of the satellite lakes.
I'm determined to get the correct species, so I'll be patient. I used to be a member of the BCA who had some breeding programmes and kept track of the pedigree of captive bred cichlids, but I believe they've given up on it.
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- igmillichip (ian millichip)
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02 Aug 2010 10:03 #4
by igmillichip (ian millichip)
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Replied by igmillichip (ian millichip) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
The olde worlde problem of names (and changes of names) and trade names and the internet. 
For ID purposes on the internet, a good natiponal cichlid society (eg british, german, american) is the best first port of call, else if you google you could find yourself on sites that are using the 'trade name'of a fish.
Google pictures, for example, could give you any random assortment of stuff.
And within all of that you have the different validated, but changed, scientiific names....of which not all of us agree with the so-called presently accepted name.
The cichlids have been one group of fish that have major problems with naming......and identification can also be tricky to add to that especially from pictures.
For ID purposes on the internet, a good natiponal cichlid society (eg british, german, american) is the best first port of call, else if you google you could find yourself on sites that are using the 'trade name'of a fish.
Google pictures, for example, could give you any random assortment of stuff.
And within all of that you have the different validated, but changed, scientiific names....of which not all of us agree with the so-called presently accepted name.
The cichlids have been one group of fish that have major problems with naming......and identification can also be tricky to add to that especially from pictures.
Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.
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- Acara (Dave Walters)
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02 Aug 2010 10:17 #5
by Acara (Dave Walters)
always on the lookout for interesting corys.pm me if you know off any!
Replied by Acara (Dave Walters) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
Anton Lamboj gave a very interesting talk on African cichlids at the show in May.He knows his stuff and I suggest you could maybe try and contact him.Not only could he help with any id,but he is part of a large group who keep and breed Victorian cichlids as part of scheme.You may well be able to get your hands on a good few species through them,and there wont be any hybrids or suchlike.
always on the lookout for interesting corys.pm me if you know off any!
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- convict84 (sean farrell)
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02 Aug 2010 10:36 #6
by convict84 (sean farrell)
Replied by convict84 (sean farrell) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
heres a link with a good few pics of what your after ohttp://www.eacichlid.co.uk/showthread.php?7391-Gymnogeophagus-Balzani&highlight=balzani
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02 Aug 2010 11:13 #7
by convict84 (sean farrell)
Replied by convict84 (sean farrell) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
there are a few books with great pics and use the latin names-Thomas Weidner - South American Eartheaters,. There are thousands (millions?) of fish sold worldwide as Geophagus surinamensis, yet the true surinamensis are a phantom in the hobby.
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- Jim (Jim Lawlor)
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02 Aug 2010 23:31 #8
by Jim (Jim Lawlor)
Replied by Jim (Jim Lawlor) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
Folks, thanks for the responses. excuse my ignorance (Ive a feeling this is like a high court judge asking who are The Beatles) Who's Anton, how can i contact him?
Thanks again,
Jim
Thanks again,
Jim
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02 Aug 2010 23:58 #9
by JohnH (John)
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We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.
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Replied by JohnH (John) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
Jim,
Send a PM to Daragh Owens or Tom, they have contact details for Anton.
A little while after I kept them (Obliquidens) - but still many years ago - they seemed to have changed to being called 'Sp 44', although the ones I saw called that were identical to my Obliquidens.
I had another Victorian species - 'Haplochromis' Nyerie (which might be misspelt) and another, the name of which escapes me, but was really dark blue, almost black, with a red band on the outer edge of the tail - they were all stunning.
Unfortunately - as mentioned - a lot of Victorian Cichlids being captive bred are inadvertently getting hybridised since the males will breed with any others of the genus.
Cannot comment very much about the Geos as, although I've kept and bred some, there are a lot more I haven't, but would like to have, kept.
John
Send a PM to Daragh Owens or Tom, they have contact details for Anton.
A little while after I kept them (Obliquidens) - but still many years ago - they seemed to have changed to being called 'Sp 44', although the ones I saw called that were identical to my Obliquidens.
I had another Victorian species - 'Haplochromis' Nyerie (which might be misspelt) and another, the name of which escapes me, but was really dark blue, almost black, with a red band on the outer edge of the tail - they were all stunning.
Unfortunately - as mentioned - a lot of Victorian Cichlids being captive bred are inadvertently getting hybridised since the males will breed with any others of the genus.
Cannot comment very much about the Geos as, although I've kept and bred some, there are a lot more I haven't, but would like to have, kept.
John
Location:
N. Tipp
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.
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It's a long way to Tipperary.
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- Jim (Jim Lawlor)
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03 Aug 2010 23:54 #10
by Jim (Jim Lawlor)
Replied by Jim (Jim Lawlor) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
Thanks for that John. I'll look him up when I get my tanks sorted.
Meanwhile I found the following on the Amercian Cichlid Assoc website, It is a response to the question of the true id of H. obliquedens, answered by the CARES Conservation Priority List - Lake Victoria Regional Coordinator, Greg Steeves.
"H. sp 44 and H. sp thick skin are one in the same. These are Astatotilapia sp. "thick skin."
The sp. 44 is the German numeric designation.
Haplochromis zebra obliquidens and Astatotilapia latashia's are likely both Astatotilapia latifasciata.
The true Haplochromis obliquidens has not been reported in Lake Victoria or any of the surrounding waterways in many years and is considered to be extinct by many. It has never made it in to the hobby at any time."
Was this your other Hap?
cichlidsofvictoria.com/album_showpage.php?pic_id=56
To be honest, Pundamilia nyererei "Senga island" looks more like what I had.
cichlidsofvictoria.com/album_cat.php?cat_id=84
God knows how it ended up in Dublin in the '90s.
Meanwhile I found the following on the Amercian Cichlid Assoc website, It is a response to the question of the true id of H. obliquedens, answered by the CARES Conservation Priority List - Lake Victoria Regional Coordinator, Greg Steeves.
"H. sp 44 and H. sp thick skin are one in the same. These are Astatotilapia sp. "thick skin."
The sp. 44 is the German numeric designation.
Haplochromis zebra obliquidens and Astatotilapia latashia's are likely both Astatotilapia latifasciata.
The true Haplochromis obliquidens has not been reported in Lake Victoria or any of the surrounding waterways in many years and is considered to be extinct by many. It has never made it in to the hobby at any time."
Was this your other Hap?
cichlidsofvictoria.com/album_showpage.php?pic_id=56
To be honest, Pundamilia nyererei "Senga island" looks more like what I had.
cichlidsofvictoria.com/album_cat.php?cat_id=84
God knows how it ended up in Dublin in the '90s.
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- JohnH (John)
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04 Aug 2010 01:47 #11
by JohnH (John)
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We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.
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It's a long way to Tipperary.
Replied by JohnH (John) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
That wasn't unlike it - I recall that mine were called, at the time, Haplochromis Nubilis - perhaps that's the same Fish in a new guise.
Even then they were in danger of becoming extinct after Nile Perch had been introduced into Lake Victoria as a food source and were eating everything small enough to fit into its rather roomy mouth!
They had started a breeding programme at the Horniman Museum in East London and I managed to scrounge a few from there, the idea being to keep the species pure but unfortunately the females of each species were so similar - and would breed with any of the other males that eventually mine probably became 'mixed' so I had to withdraw gracefully from the programme.
John
Even then they were in danger of becoming extinct after Nile Perch had been introduced into Lake Victoria as a food source and were eating everything small enough to fit into its rather roomy mouth!
They had started a breeding programme at the Horniman Museum in East London and I managed to scrounge a few from there, the idea being to keep the species pure but unfortunately the females of each species were so similar - and would breed with any of the other males that eventually mine probably became 'mixed' so I had to withdraw gracefully from the programme.
John
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We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.
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- Jim (Jim Lawlor)
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04 Aug 2010 18:25 #12
by Jim (Jim Lawlor)
Replied by Jim (Jim Lawlor) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
was it nubilia?
cichlidsofvictoria.com/album_showpage.php?pic_id=38
I don't think anything in freshwater gets much more spectacular than this:
cichlidsofvictoria.com/album_showpage.php?pic_id=41
cichlidsofvictoria.com/album_showpage.php?pic_id=38
I don't think anything in freshwater gets much more spectacular than this:
cichlidsofvictoria.com/album_showpage.php?pic_id=41
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04 Aug 2010 18:44 #13
by JohnH (John)
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We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.
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It's a long way to Tipperary.
Replied by JohnH (John) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
Yes, Jim - that was it - although it was then called Nubilis.
I had the other illustrated one as well, along with the Obliquidens (as was). You might be able to guess that females were easily mixed, since they all looked pretty much the same!
John
I had the other illustrated one as well, along with the Obliquidens (as was). You might be able to guess that females were easily mixed, since they all looked pretty much the same!
John
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We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.
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- Jim (Jim Lawlor)
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04 Aug 2010 18:49 #14
by Jim (Jim Lawlor)
Replied by Jim (Jim Lawlor) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
Awesome fish - you were lucky to have them. They are as good a reason as it gets for being in this hobby.
They obviously all need single species setups - theres a rack of six tanks in the For Sale section that's beginning to look tempting. Must do lotto . . .
They obviously all need single species setups - theres a rack of six tanks in the For Sale section that's beginning to look tempting. Must do lotto . . .
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- derek (Derek Doyle)
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04 Aug 2010 23:01 #15
by derek (Derek Doyle)
30 tanks specialise in african cichlids, angelfish and various catfish
Replied by derek (Derek Doyle) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
interesting discussion jim and john.
tom brecknell is in contact with anton lamboj and greg steeves and is growing out several varieties of pedigree haps, including nyererei ruti island and python island. when these fish are mature and breed the fry will be distributed to suitable fishkeepers with the aim of establishing pure strain populations of these handsome fish in the hobby.
there are numerous races of nyererei (a bit like tropheus moori) and they have different adult male colour and patterns but have the same basic body shape and females and juves are fairly identical.
for years some european wholesalers listed adult male nyererei at fairly high prices but never had females available.
tom brecknell is in contact with anton lamboj and greg steeves and is growing out several varieties of pedigree haps, including nyererei ruti island and python island. when these fish are mature and breed the fry will be distributed to suitable fishkeepers with the aim of establishing pure strain populations of these handsome fish in the hobby.
there are numerous races of nyererei (a bit like tropheus moori) and they have different adult male colour and patterns but have the same basic body shape and females and juves are fairly identical.
for years some european wholesalers listed adult male nyererei at fairly high prices but never had females available.
30 tanks specialise in african cichlids, angelfish and various catfish
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04 Aug 2010 23:32 #16
by JohnH (John)
Location:
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We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.
ITFS member.
It's a long way to Tipperary.
Replied by JohnH (John) on topic Re:Haplochromis & Geophagus identification
Derek,
I got the ones I had at least fifteen years (probably longer) ago and they were still unheard of in England - I had a friend in retail and he regularly went to Holland for stock and brought them back for me (Nyererie). They were unbelievably dear at the time, I paid £80 for the pair and that was 'trade' price and it was breeding and trading the offspring which financed to acquisition of the other two Victorians subsequently.
John
I got the ones I had at least fifteen years (probably longer) ago and they were still unheard of in England - I had a friend in retail and he regularly went to Holland for stock and brought them back for me (Nyererie). They were unbelievably dear at the time, I paid £80 for the pair and that was 'trade' price and it was breeding and trading the offspring which financed to acquisition of the other two Victorians subsequently.
John
Location:
N. Tipp
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.
ITFS member.
It's a long way to Tipperary.
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