Breeding pair of angel fish

robert wrote:

Hi all , i am looking for a proven breeding pair of angel fish . Dublin area . Thanks Robert

Robert,
I think you might be approaching this from the wrong direction.
I would suggest you go out and buy four or possibly even six young fish and let them grow to maturity in your big tank.
That way you'll have the pleasure (plus some heartbreak, no doubt) of watching them grow up, form pairs - from which you can choose the best one (pair) and move on the others.
This has always been the route I have taken down the years (although I have to confess I did ask Craig Fishmad if he would sell me his pair - but he was holding on to them) and has always (well, mostly always) been an enjoyable one.
Big problem, to my mind, is the indifferent quality of Angels we see in Ireland. Derek used to keep and sell very good quality Angels, but - unfortunately - no longer does so.

Just keep your eyes open for good quality juveniles and when you see some, snap them up - pronto!
Look for straight non-extended fins and good deportment too (but I'm sure you know what to look for, having been a fishkeeper for a long time).
And - if you do - why not try keeping a 'blog' to let everyone know how they (and you) are progressing.

John

Sorry, I thought you had those in their own dedicated tank - obviously I misunderstood a previous post.

It sounds very much as though the person from whom you bought the Angels was maybe not altogether honest with you, either that, or they just told you they were a 'pair' (two of anything is a 'pair') but if they were sold to you as a confirmed 'breeding' pair it is fair to expect that they would have bred and created live offspring.

If you get the opportunity to, next time they lay eggs try to see which of the pair is laying eggs (obviously if both do it's safe to assume both are females). You might just have a young infertile male - I have a pair of Black Angels here which have spawned every week or so since April with - all but once - no fry being produced. Time before last fry hatched, but were all eagerly eaten by the other inhabitants of the tank. Next spawn (with now only the pair of Angels in there) all eggs turned white and fungussed by the second day. But I knew these were a valid pair, having produced fry previously. Today they are guarding a batch of 'wrigglers' so I have high hopes this time around.

I think, by telling you this tale I am trying to stress upon you that things can sometimes 'come good' eventually and that you might well still get fry from your pair (if a pair they be).

I'm not certain what your plans for them would be - should you buy a further pair as Angels can become very assertive (to say the least) and not take kindly to any new company. My (very limited) experiences with Platinum Angels tell me they tend to be pretty aggressive so your anticipation that they may not accept even one new adult could well be spot on.

For what it's worth I, personally, would move out the existing pair then go down the 'juvenile' route suggested earlier.

Maybe others can add thoughts and suggestions for Robert?

John

I (again very personally) am of the belief that - as long as it isn't 'pure alkaline' the pH of the water isn't too crucial for domesticated strains of Angels. It has been an awfully long time in their evolution since their antecedents were in a South American river!
Your 6.2 is well on the acid side of neutral - certainly much more so than my well water is and should be considered as fine.
Far more important (again, perhaps only in my mind) for them is absolute cleanliness. Eggs and fry are particularly susceptible to any form of water pollution - no matter how little it may be.

It might be worth doing a small proportion of a water change daily - on top of the obvious benefit this can often trigger a spawning - so a double benefit.

Let us know which route you decide to go down.

Good luck,

John

(Again) very personally I would reduce the flow rate, Angels seem rather unsuited to high-flow conditions. Are your powerheads not the types on which there is a flow-restrictor?
Otherwise maybe the aerator route would be the best alternative.

Other observations, please, for Robert.

John

Bill wrote:

Maybe this thread should shift as it's become more of an advice thread than a wanted

I had been thinking along those lines myself, but decided to leave it where it is as Robert has now decided to resume his quest to buy a pair after his holiday.

But...I will just add this before a new pair is bought,
Angels, especially the Platinum and other 'recent' adaptations (and yes, to a degree I would even add Blacks - even though the first of those I bought were in 1960) have, for generations after generations, been artificially hatched (ie the eggs removed and hatched separately) and it's my belief (and that of many more eminent in this subject than me) that down the generations the 'imprint' of parental care has just become lost. This is far less likely to happen with tank bred (and tank parentally-reared) Angels since that gene is still strong in the more 'natural' strains.
As an example I will quote this to Robert - my own pair successfully raised their last batch of eggs and they hatched over the weekend. after 48 hours of dutifully minding the fry, catching the ones which strayed from their allotted position, they decided enough was enough and ate the lot!

Maybe, Robert, you should 'go with the flow' next time they lay eggs and remove them and see will they hatch artificially. I rather suspect the person who sold you the pair may have used this method to get fry and then was able to clain they were a 'viable' pair.
OK, you won't have the pleasure of watching the whole parental activity, but at least you'll have fry and young to pass on.

Sorry, more 'advice' in a 'Wanted' thread...

For what it's worth Robert I think your Angels will settle into the big tank, although they will probably establish themselves as the 'top dogs'.

As to new breeding fish - have you considered buying a pair of Discus? - More expensive I know, but the thing is this, domesticated Discus are nowadays much easier to keep than were the ones of yesteryear. Plus - because they are bred almost exclusively and eggs and young are left under the care of the parents the parental 'imprint' is so much more prevalent than with (as previously discussed) Angels.

There is plenty of details regarding Discus and their breeding if you do a search for 'Discus' on the Forum.

Many of the Rift Valley Cichlids are mouthbrooders, but really need to be kept in a Cichlid 'community' with plenty of fish in to help disperse the aggressiveness somewhat, but I'll stand aside and let others with more interest (and knowldge) of thse to better advise you.

Just a few thoughts.

John

I shouldn't be too concerned Robert.
For starters I have watched Angel fry 'browsing' off their parents in much the same way as Discus fry do, although I don't think they do this as avidly as do the latter.
As I think you mentioned you now have sponge filters which are air driven. The fry will quite happily pack at those too. You'll be surprised at how much sustenance they can get from doing this.

I remember a few years back Stephane (Miami) had a very similar scenario and he came home to Angel fry which he had had to leave (how do they know you're going on holiday???).

Also Craig Fishmad went away to foreign parts and came back to find some of the eggs he had thought were all fungussed had, in fact, hatched and there were still fry alive on his return.
Maybe Craig will elaborate more fully anon but in the meantime just go off and enjoy yourself.

John