Total noob, nitrogen cycle issues

Hello all.

As stated above I am a total complete and utter novice when it comes to fish. We bought a new tank and 6 small fancy goldfish for our little daughter last Wednesday (2 black moors, 4 ryukins). I was all ready to cycle the tank before adding fish but the shop staff told us that it wasn't necessary, just to use de-chlorinating drops and pop them in the same night. (I won't name the shop). Of course now the tank is manky, they are gulping for air and the black colour has started to drain from some of their fins. They do however seem to be very lively, albeit rather apathetic about their food (I've tried two different kinds now).

We went back and got the liquid stuff that's meant to eliminate ammonia and nitrites and all that, which has been added as per the instructions on the label. We also got a couple of plants. We had read that Amano shrimp would help but we were told that it would be next to impossible to get one. We asked about a maifan stone which they had never heard of (although now it has occurred to me that the stone rings that are part of the filter might actually be maifan stone or something similar). The only thing to do, they said, would be to leave the tank running and wait. This worried me because the fish are visibly in distress.

I decided that a second opinion was in order and I went to a different shop hoping to find the answer. I asked about live rocks and hoped to be able to beg some used filter sponge or something from them to seed some "good" bacteria into the tank. He advised me instead that a pouch of something called API Aqua Detox put into the filter would improve things. When I got it home however, I found that there was no way the thing would fit into the filter while still allowing it to close tightly and run properly. If I cut it up I think I could fit about a quarter of the pouch in there.

So what can I do? Should I take out the bag of activated carbon from the filter to make space for the Aqua Detox? Should I chop up the pouch and sew it up again to make smaller pouches, then stuff it in beside the activated carbon? Would a cleaner animal be a good thing to add or would they just eat my plants?

Regarding feeding, they are getting a sinking food which is soaked first so as not to give the ryukins problems. I've been advised that they should be fed less than usual during this early stage because leftover rotting food compounds the problems. However because the food sinks it's next to impossible to clear out the leftovers. It just gets into the gravel. Any suggestions on how to deal with that?

Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to offer.

Thanks for your quick reply John, I appreciate it!

I'm definitely never buying anything from that first shop again.

The two products I already have are the API Aqua Detox pouch thing and Nutrafin Cycle. Is Organic Aqua different from those?

I bought a gravel cleaner today actually. It's this one:
www.getprice.com.au/Aqua-One-Vac-A-Tank-...nc_363--57914007.htm
I tried it out but all it did was stir up the gravel and make the water even mankier. Do you reckon I should return it and get a different one?

All right, will do. Unfortunately nobody to mind the fish so will have to use the plan you suggested. Fingers crossed.

Well I did as you said, the OA has been in there since about 6 this evening. Even at this early stage the fish are much happier. Not gulping all the time, really active, not lolling about as they were before. No longer hanging around the surface of the water. I'm optimistic for them.

Great advice, John , I've been a great believer in OA if your using it you must be quite regimental in carrying out the instructions and as John says down the line you can revert to the traditional method. Speaking of OA where is organic Steve of late.

I was a bit surprised at the idea of blitzing my filter under the tap all right! But then again, what I know about fish keeping could be written on the back of a postage stamp so...

Incidentally they're all gulping at the surface again. Too early to be worried?

The tank is absolutely too small, I know that now. It's a hexagonal narrow tall one about 2ft high and 1ft across the bottom. I've searched all over it and on the packaging and cannot find the volume in litres anywhere though. I am prepared to find them a pond when they get a little bit bigger. I do realise the mistake I made with the tank, this was down to lack of knowledge on my part and wrong information from the shop.

They are not being sneaked any food (anymore). We did make that mistake the first day or two, people not realising who had fed them when and ending up having them overfed. We are being truly mean with the food now. They'll be fed for the first time since the OA went in tomorrow morning, though they have been nibbling a bit at the plants in the tank.

The water is lovely and clear still and they are not gulping anymore. Having looked at them more closely when they come to the surface, they seem just to be snuffling around and exploring rather than gasping.

I will do my best with them in the less than ideal circumstances. I have learned from all this and will not make the same mistakes again.

If it is 1 foot from flat-side to flat-side on the base, then the volume in gallons is about sin(60)*1*1*2*6.25
which is approx 10 gallons or about 45 litres (that allows for water level an inch or two below the top).

The surface area is a little small as that is only about 0.87 square feet (125 square inches).

ian

Thanks Ian, that's very helpful

Belueberry i would be glad to send you used filter media to tie onto your filter if it helps!
pm your address i'll post same day if it helps!

I would be so grateful to you for that. PM on its way!

newbejkjimk Thats a very generous offer, but unfortuneatly, the filter media wouldn't survive an overnight posting. It has to be kept oxygenated, otherwise it begins to die off after about an hour or so. I think Johns suggestion re the OA is probably your best bet, unless there is someone closer with a 'live' filter.

I would recommend having a "Water First Aid Kit" that contains some ammonia-removing zeolites.
A small air pump is also a very useful gadget to have as well.

Ammonia removing zeolites are pretty cheap (for what they do), and they can handle quite high levels of ammonia very rapidly (it is as instant as when the water passes over the resins) in an emergency.

They are better than liquid additives, but should not be seen as a quick way to start a tank (they are an emergency aid or an aid to add to an established tank system).

Adding an air-stone (with the pump attached of course ) will absolute wonders in a case of a failed filtration system or newly set-up tank or even a tank that has had some new additions.
Not only will help circulate water, it will increase surface area to allow increased oxygen exchange and also help drive out ammonia.

The reality is that using emergency measures like adding an air-stone or ammonia-removing zeolites is not going to do any harm (and there is only benefit to be had) in an emergency.

Another resin that I recommend (but with extreme caution) is nitrate adsorbing resins such as the powerful JBL NitrEx.
The advantage of using it is that it works very rapidly yet is a more gently approach than doing one massive water change in reducing nitrates (ie it does not stress the fish as much).
BUT...it does need to be used correctly and with caution about reducing nitrates to zero (never have zero nitrates in a tank !!, NitraEx can give zero nitrates very easily).

Another product (but more expensive) in emergencies is PolyFilter. I don't use it, but only on the basis that I use other cheaper products for emergencies.

I also use 'bacteria in a bottle' for starting some tanks (especially if I have been naughty and bought fish on-the-spot). I find that that works really well so long as you don't over feed the fish in the early stages.

One other point, and one which JohnH made, feeding and feeding and feeding (especially with new fish) is an urge that is so easy to succumb to......but resist the urge. New fish will do fine without food for a short while (and if they die because of a lack of food within a few days, then they were probably on death-row anyway).

I make those comments as general comments in addition to the good advice given by JohnH above for anyone else in such a situation.

ian

Update:
Thank you to Ian for that advice. In fact I have a medium bubble stone on a pretty strong pump which the fish seem to absolutely love. They take jacuzzis in the bubbles, which is really great to watch.

I had poor results with the OA because the tank is too small. It was unable to cope with the waste load and the water tested very high for ammonia and nitrites. One of my fish received black ammonia burns to its tail fin tips.

I went back to the person who sold me the OA, who is a specialist. He advised me that the only thing to do was to abandon the organic path and perform 50-60% water changes daily for a week, combined with a week's fasting (which was done except for the day that the burned one was not able to hold his position in the water, and then they got mashed peas for their swim bladders - after all, they are deep-bodied breeds). Following this advice, I was successful in bringing the ammonia/nitrites right down to nearly zero, but at times the harsh treatment has been visibly stressful to the fish. However they don't seem to be physically any worse off. The ammonia burns have not healed but they have not got any worse now that the week is over.

I was able to get hold of a chunk of used filter sponge locally. I am also using the API Aqua Detox in place of the activated carbon, which, as it turns out, is a zeolite product such as Ian has described. I am wary of using the JBL NitrEx because I literally have no experience and don't want to do more damage if it's such a tricky product. ETA: I am also using Stress Coat in the dual role of de-chlorinator and fin-healer.

As for my worry about their colour disappearing - well, having done a small bit of research, it turns out that black markings disappearing in goldfish is basically par for the course.
www.flippersandfins.net/goldfishfaq.htm#colorchange
It seems that only very well-bred strains will keep black markings, and even then it's pot luck. Mine are only pet shop stock, which probably means they are substandard "cull" specimens from a breeder's viewpoint. Not that it matters to me, they are lovely to my eyes and I enjoy their differences.

Actually I've been pleasantly surprised with my demekins (black moors) because one of them seems to be becoming chocolate in colour, which apparently is not all that common. He was never a true black - he always had a brassy cast on him, whereas the other is a velvety rich black. He is at present the colour of Coca-Cola and getting lighter every day, with a really cool gradient of metallic brown going down to his belly. Similar to this fish but quite a lot darker:
www.goldfishvideos.com/wp-content/upload...late-lionhead-21.jpg
Unfortunately I have not been able to get a photo to show his true colour!

Anyway, I'll update again in a while. Thanks again to all.