confused about cycling

Ok I have been cycling my tank ammonia was rising steadily to 2ppm

then eventually Nitrites appeared suddenly all ammonia was gone in a few days nitrites were between 2ppm and 5ppm,

I also was getting nitrates between 10ppm and 20ppm

I have been checking my Nitrites and they were going down.

Today I checked my tank

Ammonia = 0ppm

Nitrites = 0-0.25ppm

Nitrates = 0

It is my assumption that nitites should have been changed to Nitrates so where has my nitrates gone I have a few plants 2 ferns that were wilting since i bought them they are looking a bit healthier could they have reduced my Nitrates.

I checked twice btw. I taught i would get alot of Nitates I have bio balls, ceramic rings and carbon in my filter.

Are you doing water changes? That is the normal route to dilute nitrates.

Do you have any 'nitrate removers' (eg like the juwel 'Green' filter sponge etc)?

The plants will remove nitrates, but down to zero is questionable.

What is the pH?

How long has the tank been set-up?

Now, the nitrites at 0.25ppm is getting a little high.....that is something to worry about.

Under certain conditions, however, nitrates can be reduced to nitrogen gas or to nitrites.
I wouldn't suggest that those processes are happening in your tank....but just as a fact they can occur.

Ian

I'm doing water changes the nitite levels before my last change were 3ppm
the nitrate levels were 20ppm

The tank is nearing the final stages of cycling been nearly 2 months thats why there is a reading of .25 its actually less than .25 its not possible to tell the change with the color change.

The ph is 7.4 and the temp is 27 celcius.

Do you have fish in it all yet? and what size is the tank?

Apart from the concern over nitrites.....and that could be a test kit accuracy thing remember anyway....and you're doing water changes then it all looks pretty good to me.

It takes a long time for a tank to truly mature.....but after 2 months a tank would be fit for even the trickiest of species such as Crenuchus spilurus and some other characins etc.

One of the problems that I see with some of the advice on cycling is that it all tends to focus around nitrogen cycle. Now....getting the nitrogen cycle in-place is more than just important, but there are other things as well.
Some of those other things will never get started until you have a few fish in the tank....it is really only when fish are added that the 'cycling' goes to the next stage of maturation.

ian

I have 5 guppies The part that i don't understand is why my nitrates are 0 i have been doing 25% water changes but Nitrites are turned into nitrates so if one goes down the other should go up but thats not happening there both as close to zero as accurately as i can tell with the api test kit

Yep.
The nitrites will be converted to nitrates in the normal route of the nitrogen cycle (if everything is in-place to do that).

In a normal tank with no anaerobic spots, the nitrates are normally diluted by either water changes or by assimilation into plants.

In some cases, as I mentioned, nitrates can be converted into nitrites and ammonia. Hopefully that shouldn't happen in a properly set-up and running fish tank (else we are in trouble).

When we get into what seem like 'odd readings' we are in the realms of some complex chemistry...I could explain, but unless the water is hazardous to the fish then it's not worth worrying about.

Now, the next thing are the test kits themselves.

I don't actually know what is in the API kits as I don't use that brand.
But, in most test kits sold for aquatic use you cannot actually test nitrates in the tank. !! ????
If something like sulfanilic acid is in the API kit then that is just like most other nitrite/nitrate test kits.

The logic is as follows, if it is a sulfanilic acid based kit:

the nitrate test kit is probably a nitrite test kit. ie it can only test for nitrites.
The method used by many kits is that the test kit converts the nitrate in the water into nitrite for the test kit to measure.
Thus...the final measure on the nitrate test kit is actually the nitrite plus the nitrate in the water.

That sounds a bit mad....but here is the logic: the sensitivity of the kits is likely to be set to ignore below a certain limit; and if the nitrite in the fish tank contributes to a large proportion of the nitrite tested in the nitrate kit then you are in serious trouble from nitrite and the nitrate level becomes irrelevant.

The nitrite kit would need to be more sensitive as the upper toxic level of nitrite nitrogen is 0.5mg/l (=0.5 ppm); whereas the upper level for nitrates is almost 200 times that.!!

These kits are not 100% accurate and they are not 100% specific for the chemical being tested.
The cleanliness of the test tubes and the age of the test kit will also affect results. As more an more reagent is taken out, then more and more moisture can be absorbed by the reagent solutions.

ian

Draco wrote:

I met with very negative opinions about the API test kit, particularly the test for Nitrate. Check on the package what is the expiration date to use (if you also have the opportunity to do the test another brand, you would have a benchmark)
chris

What type of negative opinions did people show?
If it is a sulfanilic acid based test, then it is likely to have a zinc based something to add to make it different to testing nitrites....but if the zinc is overdone then the nitrates will be taken past the stage of nitrate and possibly into nitrogen gas and hence get a false low.

ian

aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=67

This is my exact test kit.

igmillichip from what i understand your saying that when i had nitrites present in my tank it was giving a false reading for nitrates now that all my nitrites are gone I don't have a high enough quantity of nitrates to give a reading.

Just 1 question is my tank cycled?

0 ammonia
0 nitrites
0 nitrates

temp 27 ph 7.4

Draco wrote:

these are the opinions of members of the Polish forum

What forum you mean? Can you give me the link to it, please?

Lambo111, no it isn't. NO3 should be between 5 to 10 ppm (20 ppm). What filter media do you have? Do yuo have any zeolite, purigen, chemipur in it?

I have bio balls, ceramic rings and carbon.

I had ammonia spike
then nitrite
I should have had a nitrate spike maybe my test kit is wrong.

Where am i in the cycle then?

Lambo111, I would remove carbo and check then.

Looking at your first post.....

if you have a nitrite reading of 0.25ppm then your nitrate reading would have been a minimum of that value plus the reading for any nitrate in the tank (because the test kit is a nitrite tester)....ie if your nitrate test were sensitive and accurate enough then for 0 nitrate in a tank with 0.25mg/l of nitrite you would have a 0.25mg/l nitrate as being the test reading.
However, the sensitivity of the nitrate test kit would not accurately read down to that level anyway (it would not need to be that accurate).

I'm not too sure how large your tank is though.

If you only have 5 guppies and the tank is large then there is enough room for the small amount of direct nitrate reduction to be a significant factor in reducing a nitrate concentration that is not increasing faster than the nitrate is removed by reduction or by water changes.

It is not the amount of nitrate that is important, it is the concentration. Your water changes will be diluting it.

I do, however, suspect the nitrate test kit to be questionable.

To know if your tank has cycled, you would need to chart the changes daily on a graph. Spot checks don't really tell you much at all wrt to the progress of cycling.

ian

Ok the tank is 330 litres

The nitrite reading in post 1 was 0 --- 0.25 there was no decernable change in color but i didn't want to put nothing down I believe that the reading is negative for nitrite. Two day prior the color change was from blue to purple meaning a reading of 2ppm.

Nitrite starts blue and turns dark blue/purple if there is a reading.

Ammonia has been 0 for several days now.

The Nitrate test starts off yellow turns orange or red but it has stayed yellow indicating a reading of 0

Right now i'm 100% that all readings are 0 for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

All have previously given readings.

Now my plants in the tank have grown alot faster in the last few days than they have for the weeks i have had them in the tank could they be attributing to a 0 reading of nitrates.

Test kits are expensive and this one came recommended by the lfs and on other websites i googled.

I have been doing daily water checks for ammonia all the way from 0ppm to a peak of 3ppm. 5 weeks

I tested for nitrites when i noticed my ammonia reducing but by then nitrites were around 1ppm to 2ppm and rose too quick for me to chart. in less than a week they reached the current levels of 0.

I'd probably say that for 5 guppies in 330 litre tank and having the water changes that you're doing then the conc of nitrate may well be so low that you would not see it.

On the test kit front, it is probably more important to have precision in your testing rather than accuracy.

A cheap test kit (and that means even expensive aquarium test kits) are unlikely to be super accurate....but they can still be precise.
There is a difference.

When using a precise methodology then you are looking for changes with the test system of choice.

You could always test the accuracy of the test kit by havign someone make up a standard nitrate solution of known concentration.
That would be standard methods in a chemistry lab....but few fish keepers do it.

Without getting my hands wet, this looks likes somethign not to worry about unless you start to lose fish.

I could write 10 volumes of science.....but teh bottom line would still come down to water changes: and you're doing them.

ian

Water changes aren't a problem Should i continue doing them every second day or should they be done once a week.

I wanted to add some neon tetra's to the tank at the weekend because i taught my tank could be cycled.
Should i add the tetra's would a dozen be too high a bio load on my aquarium.

You must be getting more and more confused

If you have the energy to do a water change every second day, then that would be pretty super.
But you rarely need to do such frequent water changes unless you have a fully stocked tank that has crashed or an overstocked tank etc etc.

Once a week would be fine.

To re-state...you have a 330 litre tank. That is not a pint-glass. !!

Although neons and guppies prefer different water conditions, they can be kept together in a community with a very slightly alkaline pH and regular water changes.

I don't like to recommend which fish to add too often as it is the choice of the keeper.....but do you have any ultimate aims as to what you want in a fully stocked tank?

It is always difficult to give exact numbers on stocking levels for tanks.....it depends on fish size, species, keeping experience, maturity of tank, and water maintenance facilities (eg filtration and water changes).

If you have 5 guppies and 12 neons (say an inch and a half each) then in a 330 litre tank you would be well and truly under-stocked even for a newly set-up tank.

In general, for neons and guppies, the room needed per inch of fish is really just to address the physical needs of the fish. ie you don’t really need to consider extra space in view of aggression or visual barriers etc.

When your tank is in full swing…..and remember it will never get into full cycling swing unless it has fish in it….you’d be surprised as to how many neons your tank would hold. !

I’d be very surprised if adding 12 neons would cause problems in the tank…….notwithstanding introduction of disease, or death due to the shock of transfer, or introducing duff fish.

It is wise to be cautious and take things one step at a time, but there comes a stage to bite the bullet and stock the tank.
(as I said, unless your tank has fish in it will not really mature….and 5 guppies in a swimming pool would not be considered much of a population !!).

ian

igmillichip wrote:

You must be getting more and more confused

Didn't want to sound ungrateful for the advice but yea I understand what you have posted(for the most part) I never liked chemistry

As this is my first tank I wanted to start off with some easy fish and i like the idea of having some large schools of neon tetras.

I have an internal hood filter but i have plans to get a external canister filter with both running the water should be well healthy for the fish.

I'll add some tetra's this weekend and keep an eye on the tank parameters.

Neons wont shoal,for a tank that size Id look into rummy nose tetras,they will look great.Also Id recommend cardinals over neons however introducing cardinals to a new tank often doesnt work.
Either way, youve a big tank so you should get an idea of types of fish you want to stock,as sometimes the fish you buy early on will not be compatitable for others later on in the stocking plans.
But at 2 months in, you certainly should have fish in their before now.
Gavin

Some posted in an earlier topic they shoal still nice fish.
It isn't easy to decide i was thinking of angels but there not compatable with my guppies and I like the guppies i have.

Many people, including myself, have successfully kept guppies and angel fish in the same tank.
There are water incompatabilities if you are attempting to keep them at their extremes, but with many tank raised fish you don't need those extremes.....just keep them water changes regular.
So long as you don't start adding things like mollies or celebes rainbows, then your water conditions have a greater usefulness.

Aggression wise....well that is always something of a debate. With some fish there is no debate, but angels and guppies are a topic of debate.

ian