Can anyone explain...

... or at least tell me if u had the same experience, or u ever saw this, or you know whats this...

A friend of mine had two diferent spawns from 2 diferent betta couples and in the two spawns fish have hatched with one and some with none ventrals

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

dont know much about bettas so could be very wrong

but could this be from inter-breeding as in breeding from a male and female from the same batch (brother and sister)????

again i could be very wrong but thought id say

would love to see wat ian has to say on this

Sean

The breeder is my best friend is over in Portugal, i know one of the spawns as 8 or 9 weeks the other is 2 or 3 weeks older.

The parents of one of the spwans came from an import from Thailand (HMPK Super Black both) the other were bought i Portugal to a nacional breeder (dont know the type) basically i've read somewere that it might be a water quality problem, and some have come up without know how to explain a gene problem...

So yeah hope ian has some wise words to help me to help my mate

One thing i know at the moment is on overwatch over the water quality, is checking all the levels GH, KH and PH.

So i might have more info later on...

Could you just confirm a few things as I may be reading the post incorrectly....

a) Did this happen with two sets of totally unrelated fish?
b) is one of the parents in both sets of fish a 'Black' strain? or is that just one set of parents?
c) do you have any details on food, pH, temperature, or humidity above the water?

ian

..and the fourth question....

d) is it the ventral fin that is missing or the pelvic fin? in the picture above, the ventral fin on that fish looks pretty much perfect to me, but it does lack a pelvic fin.

ian

A)

1st couple.

Male and Female Halfmoon (both bread and bought in PORTUGAL)

2nd Couple.

Male and Female Halfmoon Plakat (both bread and bought from Thailand)


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i was rong sorry...

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C) Food: high percentage of microworms on their diet on the first 5 weeks, then bbs...
ph: 7.0
gh: 6ºd (German JBL scale)
kh: 7-10ºd (German JBL scale)
Temp: 29ºC
Humidity value unknown, but tank allways covered.

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And u are right about the fin, its called pelvic ...

Bettaria wrote:

A)

1st couple.

Male and Female Halfmoon (both bread and bought in PORTUGAL)

2nd Couple.

Male and Female Halfmoon Plakat (both bread and bought from Thailand)


---\\---

i was rong sorry...

---\\---

C) Food: high percentage of microworms on their diet on the first 5 weeks, then bbs...
ph: 7.0
gh: 6ºd (German JBL scale)
kh: 7-10ºd (German JBL scale)
Temp: 29ºC
Humidity value unknown, but tank allways covered.

---\\---

And u are right about the fin, its called pelvic ...

Firstly, it is good to see a proper use of units in the water parameters.

In those given, there is nothing wrong with them at all for domesticated siamese fighters.

There could be an ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate problem. But, I do not see that in the gills of the fish shown....and I do not see that that fish has ever experienced a high nitrate level either (the gills never recover from a period of high nitrate).

If this were only seen in a few fish then it could be due to fighting or a spurious bacterial infection.

However, and we are only guessing here, having eliminated many other possibilities I'm left with the first item on the list I put in question c).....food.

My feeling is that the initial food is the problem. I have never experienced this problem in 40 years of breeding siamese fighters, but I do hear others mention the problem.

I am not saying that I am right, but I always recommend that siamese fighters are bred in very very mature water systems (ie a system that has been set-up for a longtime but has a good deal of partial water changes).

The reason for that is that the first food of siamese fighting fish should be a balanced supply of micro-organisms in the water (namely infusoria and rotifers).
I also use liquifry as a supplement in first food....and that also feeds the small organisms that the fry feed upon.

I would recommend not feeding the microworms as first food irrespective of their role in this problem.

The microworms might be useful in a fully balanced diet along with freshly hatched brine shrimp a few days (or just under a week) after the fry have fully absorbed their egg-sac.
I use brine-shrimp to select the strongest fish for future breeding.....the idea is that the stronger fish will get a major head-start over weaker ones and that selects out many runts (the runts simply can't compete).

Ian

I think u wise enough for us to say your are totally right eheheheh

but along the way i found this...



that explains more or less why exactlly what u just said

i'll mail him your answer, i'm shure he will be happy enough

basically water quality is not directlly related but as an important role on this issue

good man Ian

respect





P.Santos

Cheers.

There is a hit-or-miss to being totally correct or not on these things though.

Although getting siamese fighters to breed is quite easy, raising good quality offspring is a different matter....especially with most available fish being so far removed from their natural colour and fin-type.

The breeding that has gone into making the fancy varieties usually focuses on colour and fins yet often ignores the consequential actions or perpetuating or selecting for those 'fancy fish'.

Those consequences may be that a trait is introduced along with a colour or fin-type that pre-disposes the fish to particular problems that others ma not get.

It is known that certain colour types develop weak fins or are sterile.

It could be that a certain colour type is fine if fed on one type of food, but shows disastrous effects if fed on another type of a food that is fine for other fish (or other colour types).

That, though, is all the nice complexities of genetics and biochemistry.
We get it in humans; we get it in fish.

ian

thats true, i also eard, Melano Fighter Females are infertile, and my friend just had 27 frys yesterday afternoon

two ways we can look at this, the female is not 100% Melano gene, or the Melano gene myth is not 100% right, but then comes all facts you said

I see you have been reading around on the subject.

Siamese fighting fish colour genetics and the biochemistry and effects on other things associated with those genetics is quite complex, and would take at least a PhD thesis to even touch upon it.

One would have to question the pedigree of certain strains of siamese fighters.....if a melano is worth loads of money then it is interest of a seller to flog something that looks like it as a 'melano'.

If you have a fish with a dominant version of a given gene (remembering that siamese fighter colour traits are controlled by many genes) then it may (I say 'may' because not all colour traits in these are simple dominant/recessive) hide the fact that the fish is heterozygous (having different versions of the gene)for that gene.
The offspring could statistically be a mix of colours depending on the other parent's genetic make-up.

What you see is not always what you have on the inside.

ian

I'm pritty shore you are right

And you wont get what you want from a certain couple of bettas for a few generations, yes i will lose my time to read the two articles u gave me about the subject i promise...

But yes the variaty of deferent genes Today is ridiculous...

But my atention on these bettas of course is the collour but mainlly their ritual of breeding, and so far i have 4 or 5 that just hatched happy days...

hopefully it will be a success my first batch of Betta Splendens ahahahahah

Maybe you'll also want to think about looking at further Betta behaviour (especially in other species) whereby you let the parents raise the babies to quite a large size......... the presence of the babies can have a controlling effect on the parents, and then parents drop their breeding colours or breeding behaviour whilst young are in the tank.

In some killifish, the eggs won't hatch if the parents are in the same water.

Fish behaviour and science is one of the most fascinating of all animal sciences, and Betta breeding is no exception.

ian

igmillichip wrote:

Maybe you'll also want to think about looking at further Betta behaviour (especially in other species) whereby you let the parents raise the babies to quite a large size......... the presence of the babies can have a controlling effect on the parents, and then parents drop their breeding colours or breeding behaviour whilst young are in the tank.

In some killifish, the eggs won't hatch if the parents are in the same water.

Fish behaviour and science is one of the most fascinating of all animal sciences, and Betta breeding is no exception.

ian

Holy Moley Ian, I was not aware of any of that information, amazing stuff.

Kev.