bettas and shrimps

i m relatively new to keeping fish, started getting hook after buying a goldfish tank for my son until the fishes died and learned about nitrogen cycle. so bought a 30 litre nano tank cycled it added java fern and a male betta. 2 months later i added 5 cherry shrimps who died one by one in less than a week followed by the betta. checked and rechecked the water and everything was spot on. i bought another betta and was told amano shrimp will be fine with the betta. sadly the same thing happened. so bought guppies by despair, 1 male and 2 females,after three days only one is alive and still not eating anything although she is swimming happilly around the tank. i decided to get the water tested by 2 different fish shops in cork and was told the water was perfect. the water temperature is 26c and the water flow is low ( original aquael filter sets to minimum).
could someone figures out what is wrong, i would like to get a bigger tank to house different type of tropical fishes but i need to find out what i m doing wrong to avoid killing more fish.
anthony

happy christmas to you too and thanks for taking the time to reply.
no the shop didnt check for copper and i dont use a water conditioner. there shouldn t be a probleme with chlorine because the water comes from my own well and the water was professionally tested after the drilling of a second well 2 years ago but i dont know about copper i will try to buy a test.
Could it be than a 50 percent water change every two weeks is overstressfull for the fish for this tank size ?
ultimately i would like to have a low tech open planted tank. what kind of tank volume would you reckon is the best for a newbie like me, i was thinking in buying a second hand one because the new tanks i like are ususally over my price range.
thanks

Hi Anthony, welcome to the forum.....and as you can guess: some of us stay relatively sober on xmas day.

I will agree with JohnH on Nano tanks being more for experienced fish-keepers, but a 30 litre tank would not be so 'Nano' for a siamese fighter and a few shrimp. So, I would not go for the size of tank being the problem.

I would also agree with JohnH on the size of the water changes.
I would advise small and frequent water changes.

Now....there are 4 problems that do stand out:

1. The size of the water change is a bit too large (especially for someone starting out);

2. Irrespective of the source of the water, it should be conditioned somehow. The conditioner will help stabilise the water, but you need one that removes heavy metals.

3. The well.....that could be a problem. Has it been tested for levels of cadmium or lead? Does it have lime added to lower the chances of cholera (or other substance added to do the same)?

4. The LFS in Cork.....saying the water is 'perfect'.
I think that they are telling you porkies as water that is perfect for Bettas is not perfect for shrimp; and water that is perfect for Guppies is not perfect for Bettas (even if not mixed).
So, I suggest that they tell you what they mean by 'perfect'.

Another point that I could identify is the method of how the fish are introduced. The deaths seem to be close to the initial time of introduction.

I would float the bags for a time get equal the temp in the bag with the tank water, then I'd suggest emptying the fish from their bags into a non-toxic tub and use some air-line to slowly trickle siphon water from the tank onto the fish before introducing the fish into the tank.

For a full analysis, I'd need to know more about the behaviour of the fish leading up to their death.

ian

whwn i introduce a new fish i introduce the fish by letting the bag float in the tank water for 30 mins and then add water from the tank every 20 minutes, about a cup full every time. for the beahaviour of the new fish they start swimming like crazy and then they usually stay above the filter at the surface that is for the guppies.the bettas didnt seem to be behaving strangely but i m not an expert. i thing i killed my last betta by changing too much water at the same time trying to get read of my java moss type plant who was covered of brown algae or deposit from my spiral val.the brown stuff keeps coming back on my java fern. that might be clue for the quality of the water.
for my last poor betta he got under the water flow when i was refilling and started to act weird and hiding.
does anyone knows if the betts killed the shrimp or is it my water changes.
i attach a picture of the java fern for you to see the brown stuff.
thanks

sory about the picture it is my first day on the forum

sory about the picture it is my first day on the forum

The stuff on the java fern looks like organic mulm (and possibly some browning of the leaves in places).

I keep all my Bettas in heavy peat substrate tanks anyway, and so never worry about chunks of organic stuff floating around.

The mulm in itself is unlikely to kill Bettas, but the reason behind it might.

One source of the mulm might be churning up of debris and uneaten food from the substrate when changing water, or it might be gunge being thrown out of the filter after a filter re-start.

If the stuff contains un-eaten food that has a fungal growth and the fish eat it, then that might explain rapid deaths. BUT......that is more common with grazing fish such as discus or night-time predators such as Polypterus.
Hence, the stuff on the ferns would not be my first concern in the case of your dead fish.

Yes....a siamese fighter would be capable of bumping off shrimp. But that does not explain the death of the fish.

My first port of call on this is either the water source, shock from the water changes, or shock from the fish being introduced.

An added point to the shock from fish being introduced is that you may be getting a transient ammonia spike due to the increased bio-load on your filters.
I suggest adding some 'bacteria in a bottle' (filter start product) as there is no evidence that the system is capable of handling waste products from the fish (and I personally would not, for reasons said in my previous thread, be listening to a shop saying the water is 'perfect')

I'd advise using a water conditioner such as Tetra AquaSafe as it contains chelating agents to remove many heavy metals and Vitamin B1 (to help protect against stress).

If you know any fish-keepers near by who could cut you off an inch square of Polyfilter then that will mop-up some stuff....but, more importantly, it will also change colour if you have certain poisons in the water.
You could always buy a sheet of it.

ian

thanks a million guyz for taking the time to answer my questions,especially during this buzy time of the year, it is really appreciated.
I will go tomorrow to get myself a proper test kit and a bottle of water conditioner and do a smalll water change once a week.
i wish you a merry christmas and a happy new year
regards
anthony