"Balloon fish are we beyond this?"

www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3436 , I know this will kick up a bit of a fuss but was just wondering on the general opinions of everyone with relation to the above link ( not just the balloons but dyed too )and before the post delves deep into genetics (and parrot fish i can imagine ) if opinions could be focused on the overt issue above.Personally a dream would be too have the lfs's join together and have customers sign petitions to put forward to an active arm of government to prevent this as a widely accepted practice in our country.Hope to hear a diverse range of opinions please ,i consider this cruel and recoil at the thought of harming our finned friends, thats just a mild unfolding of mine!! :)

Hi Paul.

I'll risk admonishment and say this and many Posts akin to it have been thrashed to death.

Here's a sample and believe me, there are MANY more, although I understand your feelings, it'd be safe to say everyone feels as you do.

www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/fforu...394-dead-disco#75394

Kev.

I didn't comment on the thread Stretnik cited.
My tongue-in-cheek reply to balloon fish is they go nicely in an big snake head tank (ask any snakehead).

But, this has been a topic of wide 'moral' and 'ethical' debate in many places....maybe it should go down the genetics route, and I'd probably make a contribution to that.

As for asking a government to do something about them?
That would mean policing any legislation and that also means defining exactly a balloon fish (the law needs a specific guide else it becomes useless).

The other side is that last week we already saw people on the streets trying to get the government to ban people from keeping or breeding "non-indigenous exotic animals" (which is a bit of a funny one as we can't keep indigenous animals anyway !!). That would include fish, reptiles, amphibians, birds etc

With such 'broad' requests for legislation....??....the government maybe have other things on their mind.

But, hybrids (not that a balloon fish is necessarily a hybrid) come under a fuzzy logic within legislation already: one method of getting around trade in CITES listed species (esp in orchids) is to produce hybrids of a certain pedigree. ie legislation would effectively 'favour' hybrids.

I'm not a fan of balloon, coloured, or day-glo fish. If there were no market, then maybe their production would stop.

I was talking yesterday about the rarity of seeing captive bred Brown Discus.....good quality CB Brown Discus are stunning, yet maybe the market has favoured the gaudy coloured but mal-formed large eyed elongated strains with duff intestines instead !!! maybe it is the same as the balloon fish, but no-one seems to make a call for banning those.

ian

At the risk of being oversimplistic there is no need for government involvement (theyd probably cock it up anyway and end up costing us a fortune). No demand = No supply.
Its not just the ordinary joe in the street that needs to stop buying these (a lot of whom dont understand the practices involved) its the responsibility of the petshops to not order them.
Pat

Yes i am fairly aware of the vast numbers as you state ' many more ' thats why i was hoping for now this could be focused on, just these would be the most obvious and certainly most frowned upon, since when should thousands upon thousands of years of evolution be cast aside and seen as undesired for the sake of well a dumbed down view on the aesthetic side of things whilst personally i find the original of any species to be the most enthralling! ( within reason of course not to be needing to retreat all the way back to original haplochromis's etc etc ) also yes that is very true about the government if anything favouring hybrids , i would be interested on hearing your take on the genetic strains ? (also the browns are certainly beautiful i do agree ,the green red spots win it over them though for me )

i do agree pat

The thread will decend into comments about who stocks them? why do they stock them? Disco Fish, Telescope eyed Gold Fish, Lion heads, Long finned this and that, Genetically modified Danios, Luminescent Barbs ad nauseum.

Maybe there should be a section on all of the abhorrant introductions where the topic can be debated in full as this topic is constantly being re-hashed and sometimes gets to the point where individual LFS are being hit for accidently recieving these fish as compensation for lack of the initially ordered Fish.

LFS have defended themselves adequately recently, explaining that they receive Fish in the delivery and only know what's been delivered AFTER the delivery, they have a difficult decision what to do, they have in their possession, Fish they DIDN'T order, that they DON'T want and are stuck with, they arrive in the Store, what should they do? if they destroyed them and People found out, all Hell would break loose, they offer them for sale, they get a public castration on the Fora.

They can't put ultimata to the suppliers because most if not all suppliers supply these Fish.

We live in a tiny Country, relatively speaking so our attempts at re-educating people on a large scale is a difficult task.

I am afraid, you are looking at this type of Fish NOT going away because the Tide is against the rational and understanding among us, when you live in a World where the vast majority of People don't even know where their Food comes from.

Kev.

It is important that the old Frankenstein film style lynch mobs don't go on a manic digging out shops that do happen to have them delivered.
It is not a way forward......but, if you don't like em them don't buy them.

We could always go back to the "he who is without sin cast the first stone".....
certain fish get a specific platform, and when those fish are cited then hell breaks loose; yet there may well be fish of an equal standing that don't get such a public note. (I happened to bring up discus as an example of similar but different to the balloon fish in internal aberrations where out-cries don't happen).

There is a one-sided shock-horror. Unless someone is old enough to have been born when there was no such thing as an Oranda, then would they have got the same publicity as balloon fish?
What about the first male siamese fighting fish that we take as being 'normal'?
I can't remember a day when there was no such thing as male siamese fighting fish with long flowing fins; I came into fish keeping as they were a 'norm'.

So, maybe the problem is the 'new' batch of fish that we are seeing rather than a complete objective look at fish in the hobby.

I do, however, view dyed or disco fish with a totally different eye to balloon fish, orandas, and various hybrids.
I personally see the artificial day-glo fish as being 'wrong'. But that is from a scientists point of view.

There is a section on the forum for this type of discussion..... the Conservation et al section at the top of the forum. This had been requested such we can discuss conservation, morals, ethics, and be a place devoid of specific vendors of fish etc etc.

ian

My personal problem with these Fish is that each of them has had manipulation of some sort to bring them to their current state/appearance.

Dyed fish have to be physically held and dye injected, some fish don't get over the stress and subsequently die, breeding certain characteristics into Fish like bubble Eyes or oversized Fins or Balloon shaped bodies interferes with normal, in nature behaviour. It makes swimming an awkward activity as well as feeding.

People are never happy with things as they are they always want to "improve" on what is already perfection, if it wasn't perfect to start with it would have become extinct a long time ago. If it displeases you, leave it in the store, the store owners don't need a talking to, the purchaser does, as was said before, if you don't buy, they won't sell.

no no god no i think its fairly clear that everyone knows that the wholesalers send in these fish f.o.c and i do agree a problem arises in morals.I most definitely am not trying to guide this post into a lynch mob ! , i do agree we live in a small country but thats the beauty of it there arent many people boundaries when attempting to get in contact with people capable of legislation etc, also i do agree ian about the more intricate problems regarding discus etc but respectfully the people buying balloon mollies and dyed fish i cant imagine are buying discus in any sizeable quantities so the no demand = no supply operates amongst aquarists such as ourselves.thats not saying i accept it at all just one step at a time i would suggest as mentioned above its extremely hard to educate the country ?
why allow these moral questions be placed in the first place when the problem can be nipped in the bud ? this is a great society full of highly educated enthusiasts why should we incorporate a defeatist attitude towards some small progression and refer to this post as just another conversation on animal cruelty that has no progressive result, of course its just throwing a pebble making a ripple in an ocean but without that ripple there would be nothing.At least at the end of it something great could be achieved under the prestigious name of this organisation and we should be inspired be our european neighbours who pursued such causes like goldfish bowls and i make reference to this article in the times please read > www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article583028.ece
i have no problem pursuing the case further to my local representative ( who lives around the corner ) particularly regarding dyed, balloon and bowls , incorporating the support of this society and possibly a public petition from lfs's would be monumental .

At what point was any Post defeatist? we are a small Country that imports Fish, not exporting Fish , if we were exporting Fish, problem solved, you have to realise what we are dealing with is Countries many thousands of miles away where rules and regulations are far and few between. With Rio xingu on the way to obliteration and a ban in place on some of the rarer Fish from that area despite the extinction of that particular population of Zebra Plecos you can see where logic and reason evaporate.

The local Fish Stores don't get the Fish free on every occasion, if a supplier cannot honour a transaction they usually compensate with other species they find hard to shift, namely the type of Fish pertinent to this discussion, the agreement was made between the Wholesaler and the retailer, if he cannot fill the order money is lost on carriage as it is agreed upon before the delivery is dispatched. This in itself, the compensation with unmoveable species, indicates that by not buying them in the LFS they are left in the Fish Farms out East.

Defeatism is when you buy the Fish because they look cute etc and not the opposite. We can target Dog breeders etc here because they are here, something goes wrong, ie, over breeding, over in-breeding, bad or inhumane husbandry can be reported to the relevant authorities and those Authorities are pretty damn good on dealing with all of the instances of cruelty. Now head across the Globe and try to do the same thing, not a hope.

Simple equation, if you don't buy they can't sell, no customers, no business.

Kev.

ok thats fair maybe defeatist is a too strong a word ? apologies, i was more trying to converse the thought that maybe attempts could be made in the direction of making ' a ripple in the ocean '? , yes i am aware of how the wholesaler aspect operates ive dealt with them constantly and do agree its quite a macro scale we're discussing here , the purpose of this post was merely to gather opinions ( which i do relish with the most respect ) and hopefully some support ?

I know for a fact that there is not one single individual on this Forum that would see a Tank full of Disco Fish etc without cringing or feeling disgusted.

I genuinely believe that the only way to stop the trade within these Isles is to lobby as many people in the Hobby including Periodicals, Colleges specialising in Aquaculture, ministers to countries that carry out these practises etc. I firmly believe the LFS are the Meat between the Bread in this debate.

I feel however that given the relatively small finance that the importation of Tropical Fish into Ireland generates for these exporting Countries, it will be a very steep up hill battle.

I still believe, and I am sorry for reiterating this, hit the suppliers where it hurts, in their Pockets.

Kev.

While i think your quest is very noble and i admire you for it

I think you have to take into consideration the amount of Aquatic enthusiasts in Ireland is relatively small most of which i would say would agree with you.

Then you have fish keepers not enthusiasts people that just like to keep fish i would imagine this number would be fare larger and these people will buy what they think looks good it could be a hybrid fish even an fluorescent fish, and if this is what floats there boat then there will always be a demand. And sorry but if your the owner of a shop that has a demand for these types of fish you are going to supply to it why send the business somewhere else(well that would be me)trying to hit the supplier were it hurts will only have a negative impact and the price you pay for other fish will only go up or the quality of fish will reduce

Ok should not have used fluorescent fish they are illegal

I definitely agree that it is a horrible practise and needs correction, it's it's implementation that is the difficult part.

Where would we be today if Lead and Asbestos was still poisoning Mankind? Someone recognised it's hazardous nature and sorted it.

I just think that it isn't acceptable because there enough People to support it to continue with it.

I genuinely believe that in everything in life there has to be a Threshold that should not be stepped over, there have to be limitations to guard against a free for all, something to protect against unfettered tampering with Nature.

Kev.

I think that one point that many of us have seen before is that a good 'moral' or otherwise debate thread often turns into an on-line specific naming and shaming of shops (or to hints so strong that there is nothing left to the imagination).

I would say that that has been the concern of a few people posting here (and noted by Admin as well).

In attempting a resolution, the options on Balloon fish need to be on the table and to review one as to whether realistic/feasible or not.

How does a community stop shops ordering or selling them?
How does a community encourage people not to buy them?
How does a community stop suppliers simply sending them to 'cover costs'?
Is education good enough? (well, for education to be effective, you need an audience to start) If so, what exactly would be context underlying that education?
Can we (as a country) bring in legislation to prevent importation or breeding?

ian

very true guys , very true , i feel anyone whose had interaction with the wholesalers in ireland understands that it can be done ? of course it requires a good deal of communication and of course we are a small island that as you say kev are virtually non existent in the books of such giants in singapore etc but how great would it be to have our country free of injected etc fish and maybe welcome applause from similar pioneering societies in the field of animal welfare and to give something back to our ever entertaining aquatic friends ? , any advice would also be very welcome

thank you ian , much appreciated input , anybody have an extension on ians or your own extension on your post ian?

There needs to be some in-depth, documented evidence to show potential and current Hobbyists exactly what takes place to get Fish to your Tank, prior to education, people thought it was terrible to take so many millions of Cardinal tetras out of their environment until it was explained that these were caught in pools left behind by receding Flood waters in the Amazon region and that they were treated as well as possible to guarantee the continuing supply, these seasonal Fishermen keep the Pools and small Lakes as pristine as possible as it guarantees an income.

Too much is SAID on topics of concern, I find People only react if they SEE evidence, as far as I know, people buy interfered with Fish in the belief it's the norm.

Any way I'm finished on the thread, I'll leave it between you guys.

Kev.

igmillichip wrote:

How does a community stop shops ordering or selling them?
How does a community encourage people not to buy them?
How does a community stop suppliers simply sending them to 'cover costs'?
Is education good enough? (well, for education to be effective, you need an audience to start) If so, what exactly would be context underlying that education?
Can we (as a country) bring in legislation to prevent importation or breeding?

ian

Unfortunatly i see a very steep uphill battle on the horizon
For me taking into account Ians comments i think education would be the starting point a coarse of sorts each time a person buys fish or equipment the supplier advises them of said coarse(problem hear is could be counter productive for the supplier)

As Ian said you need an audiance this could be over come with the use of online coarses people might be more willing to view if nothing else have a pass mark no one likes to fail.

after a person passes a coarse they might be willing to learn more looking for more advanced coarses.
maybe its somthing that could be provided on a seperate forum link


I could be waffling hear it makes sence in my head

It would be very idealistic if a course was the way to go but it is a major leap forward to get an individual to do the proper Water changes or to use a Quarantine Tank, imagine trying to get some to take a course!
I have seen Clownfish being bagged and sold without asking what they were going to keep it in....

Another Thread I fear.

A possibility would be for a Supplier/pet shop to visit schools as part of a biology Class to give a basic Education on Fish/animal husbandry.

Sorry, that IS my last offering.



Kev.

just wondering how many last post Kevin can do

yes it would idealistic indeed however if it was somthing that could be provided free i would think it might get some interest even if only few took it seriously.

It would be interesting to see some other views on the whole content of this thread

As with Kev, I should stop posting here.... but I hope that Kev does post some more.

Education is a great ideal, but it is an ideal.

There is a major problem.....the audience that we often get when delivering education are the already 'converted'.
It is a bit like having a conference on "looking after your stomach's health" that is only attended by gastroenterologists.

Customer cohorts at LFS is greater than the regular fish-keeper: people fresh from getting a TV at Currys may decide to get a fish tank whilst going back to the car-park.

ian

well guess just me left then on the post
i'm going to delve a little more into this and compile some documents ( if anyone could help me out with any articles i'd be very grateful ) to forward to a local representative , people can call it as they like but i'd like to try at the least , its very difficult to stop someone beating a horse if it cant be seen off in a field somewhere , its very easy to stop a wholesaler selling a certain fish on in ireland with the threat of fines from seeing them on availibility lists , i'll try keep you guys updated if you want ?

At the risk of sounding defeatist be careful not to get consumed by your quest Tropi-Paul what you want to achieve is very honourable

Let’s just have a quick look at the stats based on your thread this is going to give an idea of the uphill struggle taking into account this is a tropical fish forum were the concern and welfare of fish is at the heart

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yes thats a valid point paul , seems a bit of a shame i was kind of hoping for a little more involvement of peoples opinions as you say over a thousand strong which is impressive , not to disregard the conversation held on this post as it was enjoyable and thought provoking , uphill battle? yes indeed , rome wasnt built in a day however and good things are always worth fighting for incline or not