Tank set-up, some questions!

Hi there,

Hopefully this video will embed and play properly. This is my first tank, and I've just started the fishless cycle tonight. I've a few questions, and I'm hoping the video will help clarify the questions!

s1213.photobucket.com/user/jasonb13/medi...zps5e553a46.mp4.html

Firstly, As you can hopefully see, the pump is moving the water a lot. You can see how much movement there is on the surface, and the Vallis in the back left corner is being sucked towards the filter intake. Is this too strong, and should I ease off on the pump?

Secondly, there seems to be a 'coating' on the surface, it's clear at the filter output but then cloudy elsewhere. What causes this?

And finally, any other thoughts / comments / advice considering what you can see on the video?

Thanks!

J.

P.S. I couldn't get it to embed, but hopefully clicking on the link will play the video for you...

That's a nice size tank Jason. The scum on top of the water can be caused by the plants, it has no adverse effects on the water or it's inhabitants. You can mop this up with filter wool or suck it up when you do a water change (thats if it is annoying you) I also get this scum on the water from certain types of food.

Its good to have movement on the surface as it helps oxygenate the water, the flow rate doesn't look to fast and i wouldnt worry about the vallis .But when you put in some fishes make sure that they wont get sucked up that intake.

Keep testing you water from now on and wait.... not much else you can do at this stage.

Stuart.

Thanks Stuart, I appreciate you taking the time to answer all my posts!

The scum doesn't bother me too much, I just wanted to make sure it was nothing to worry about! And I'll leave the pump speed alone until I add fish and see how they handle it.

Yep, Ammonia added last night, now all I can do is wait and test!

J.

this has the makings of a great tank fair play Jason, the flow looks good to me looking forward to an update

What is the ammonia reading now? (or when the ammonia was first put in the tank).

ian

Thanks Danny, as my first ever tank I'm happy with it so far, but of course there are no fish in it yet!

The Ammonia reading last night was around 5-6ppm Ian. I found this thread online that seems to describe a nice, easy to follow, fishless cycle so I'm going with that:

www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitr...-fishless-cycle.html

So basically I now test the Ammonia each day, and add some more when it approaches zero, and then start the Nitrite testing...

J.

At what stage are you going to start measuring nitrite and nitrate (it is no use doing it after the zmmonia reading is at zero)?

I would recommend a proper graph of the progress (maybe take readings every 2 days).....then if something goes wrong you can look back and analyse the system a little (not much, but a little at least).

You also need to make notes of the temperature and pH when doing ammonia readings.

What about the plants and the quite high ammonia?

ian

No worries Ian, I've a reputation with those who know me well for using Excel for everything (how sad is that!) so I'll be keeping track of each day's readings. I'll be testing for Ammonia each day, and when it starts to drop I'll start testing for Nitrites (as you'd imagine the drop in Ammonia should mean an increase in Nitrites).

I've read that it's fine to have plants in those conditions, so hopefully they'll be fine. The logic of the cycle I'm following is that you know that when you get to a stage where you can add 3-4ppm Ammonia to a tank and have Ammonia and Nitrites at zero the next day, then you have the bacteria you need (assuming you've seen both Ammonia and Nitrites spike and reduce and are left with Nitrates).

We'll see how it goes, I've 6 weeks before I plan to get fish, so that will hopefully give me time for the cycle, and hopefully time to deal with anything else that might pop up (like the potentially dodgy heater and some of the plants not surviving my clumsy attempts at planting them)!

J.

Well......I wouldn't take too much notice of the theory as stated in that article linked to as it is not particularly correct in many places.

However, if nitrosofying bacteria are present then you should see an increase in nitrites with time, and that that increase could be related to a decrease in ammonia if the amount of ammonia is not increased after the initial innoculation.
A decrease in ammonia alone is not a sign of anything other than a decrease in ammonia.

It is the time taken for the changes in ammonia to occur that is important......ammonia will decrease even without any bacteria by virtue of vaporisation (and that is no use for fish keeping); it is when it is quite a rapid decrease in ammonia with the increase in nitrites that we are getting closer to fish-suitable conditions (ie catalysed decreased in ammonia)

ian

Thanks for that information Ian. I'll make sure that any drop in Ammonia isn't just evaporation and has an associated increase in Nitrites as well. Thanks..

J.

Jason

It sounds to me like you have done a fair bit of reading!
Have to say this place is a wealth of information!

Congrats on what looks like a great setup
Best of luck with the cycle and the introduction of live stock

Thanks Hammie, I'm really enjoying it so far, but it's such a learning curve as well. For example, I've realised over the last few days that I've put the tank too close to the corner of the room, which makes it very hard to get at the left hand side and back of the tank. While it looks nice and neat in the corner, it won't help with cleaning the glass etc! When I do a big water change at the end of the cycle I'll move it out a little bit, there's no hope of moving it now.

A quick question for you Ian. Reading back through this thread I noticed that you said I should be testing the PH as well. Any reason why I should be keeping an eye on this? I mean, obviously I want to know what the PH is, but any reason why I'd keep testing it?

Ammonia was still around 5-6ppm last night, Nitrites at 0 (as expected!).

J.

Its important to keep the PH of the tank water as stable as possible. You will need to keep you PH in mind when choosing what fish you are going to keep . A neutral PH in water is 7.0, the higher the PH the more alkaline the water, the lower this number is the more acidic the water.

When choosing your fish for your community tank make sure they are all in the same water PH range 6.0-7.0 will probably cover alot of the common community fish.

I'm sure the lads can go into more detail about water ph.

Stuart.

Hi Stuart,

I understand the basic concept of PH, but I assumed (probably incorrectly) that whatever your PH is in your tank, it will basically stay at that (i.e. it doesn't change much)? Like I said, that is probably incorrect though!

Apart from the possibility of the PH changing in the tank (for example, I do know that adding real rock or peat can change it), I'm also unsure why I should test PH every day while testing Ammonia etc. What do I 'get' from knowing the PH level every day, and what (if anything) should I do about it?

Hope all that makes sense! My plan was to get the PH of the tank and use that to make sure the fish I want will be ok in that PH. I didn't know of or consider the PH changing, or having to test the PH every day during the cycle?

Thanks...

J.

I won't go into too much on the chemistry theory here, but pH and temperature is a vital consideration when talking about ammonia/ammonium in the tank. The degree to which pH is vital will also depend on what exactly your test kit is measuring (viz: ionised ammonia or ionised + unionised ammonia).

Now, you do not need to measure the pH every day.....but an ammonia reading should always have the pH and temperature (of the test water and of the aquarium) at the same time.

See

www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/artic...ammonia-calculations

for a few added details on this.


In essence, not only does the pH affect the rate of development of nitrosofying and nitrifying bacteria, it will also affect the actual amount of free (unionised)ammonia and ionised ammonia (ammonium ions) in the water.
The equilibrium of ammonia/ammonium is also affected by temperature.

In addition, Ammonia (being a weak base) will tend to increase pH and buffer the pH at around 9.2; ammonium (being a salt of a weak base is a weak acid) and will tend to decrease pH.

When it comes to the process of nitrosofication (the oxidation of ammonia to nitrite) and nitrification (the oxidation of nitrite to nitrate) then pH and alkalinity buffering will also play in the outcome products. If you have limited pH buffering (low alkalinity) then the nitrification process is more likely to produce nitric acid rather than nitrates.....the nitric acid will lower the pH and start to rapidly decrease the effectiveness of the nitrogenous waste removal in the tank.

ian

Jason

Ill be completely honest..... PH sounds more complicated in the beginning than it actually is when you start getting more involved with it!
I nearly had a heart attack when i first started reading info that Ian made available to me.... but Read Slowly and absorbe as much of it as you can....
My water from the tap at home (in the last place) was 8.6
I succsessfully lowered this to 6.2 stabally and have been keeping SA cichlids for over a year without issue...

research is the key

If you look at any of my tanks, they are all corner units.... and all jammed into the corner, standing on a step ladder lets me clean the glass without issue and i dont think id want to move the tank out further...

Things are always chopping and changing, dont think that once you set it up that things will stay the same forever.... they always evolve
enjoy the evolution dont fear it

Thanks everyone...

@Ian... Ok, I need to read that when I'm not too tired! I do have a basic understanding of what you're saying, but I'll read it a few times to make sure I'm taking it all in. From a practical 'I'm trying to get the right bacteria in my filter' point of view, is there anything I should be doing with the Ph readings I'm taking. In other words, if I keep getting a Ph of, say, 8, is that ok, or should I be trying to adjust it?

And then, once I have the filter up and running fully and am ready to put some fish in, once again, if my Ph isn't ideal (for the fish I'd like), what can / do I do about it? Hammie, you lowered yours from 8.6 to 6.2, and kept it stable at 6.2. How?

J.

Jason
Your PH depends on what you want to keep, If you want to keep Malawi or Tanganiki Cichlids they require a high PH, if you want to keep South and Central American cichlids, they require a lower ph

I adjusted my ph with peat and bogwood, there are many many methods of adjusting ph!!! I also use quite a bit of RO water during water changes as that has a lower ph than what came out of my taps!


So if your ph is @8 and you want to keep Jack Dempseys and Green Terrors youll need to lower your PH, however if you want to keep Yellow Labs and red top zebra's you should be spot on!

Hope that helps

The reason why I say take a pH reading is that an ammonia reading is no real use without a pH and temp reading.

However, as it is likely that your ammonia test kit is a total ammonia test kit (ie ammonia plus ammonium) then you will not notice much of change with changing pH.
But if your test kit measured ammonia then it would make a massive difference.

Where the pH reading comes in handing in the first instance is if things are not going right.....you have a trail to follow to follow backwards.
It will also give you an insight into whether or not the level of ammonia is the level of ammonia your test kit reads (that is something that many do noit quite follow).

Say your test kit says you have 2mg/l of ammonia then you may actually have 0.15mg/l of ammonia.....it is the temperature and pH that will help tell what the real ammonia reading is if using a total ammonia test kit.

But with an ammonia-only (unionised ammonia) test kit, it may give an incorrect low result if the temperature has dropped (and the pH has dropped as well) during the test.

pH et al is actually very complex.

ian

Well I tested my pH last night, and it's about 8-8.2

The problem is I have my heart set on some Sterbas Corys, and from what I can find, they like 6.2-7.8.

So, I have to lower my pH, and ideally do it in a stable, natural (yet easy!) way.

Any suggestions?

Thanks...

J.

Exerpt taken from "www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/a...ex.php/t-110241.html"

I see people asking how to lower their pH naturally, here is what works for me using Peat and Driftwood.

The water where we live is very good water but high in pH 8.0 and hard and I like to keep South American Characins so; buy yourself a box of AZOO peat moss or any organic peat moss. Put it in the bag that comes with it or if you buy the peat moss elsewhere you will have to buy a media bag. Put the bag of peat (after rinsing well) in with your filter media. After 3-4 weeks my pH lowers to 6.5; you must monitor this closely. Remove the Peat from the filter at this time (your desired pH) because it will continue to soften the water and that can mess up the ammonia level in your tank. This is where the driftwood comes into effect as it will help buffer the pH and hardness. You will notice the pH go back up after water changes but again the driftwood will help buffer it back down.

You should not use chemicals to lower your pH. They work for some people but most others with experiance will tell you they are a quick fix and not good for your fish in the long run. Others will tell you to let the fish acclimate to the local pH which is fine, but alot of your South American and African Characins as well as many Chiclids from the same regions will realy show their best colors in lower pH. Plus if you become advanced enough to want to try and spawn most of them, they can't because they need soft water.

This is only one opinion, I hope it helps.

This is only 1 option... this is one of the searches i came accross when i was lowering my own ph to keep the SA's

Thanks for that Hammie. It's never easy, is it, there always seems to be another step to do.

Am I right in thinking that Peat Moss / Driftwood will affect the water colour; it could go more brown / brackish?

Just thinking some more (and reading some more) and stability seems key, so much so that it seems better to stick with the pH I have, rather than try to change it, if possible. However, all the fish I'm interested in (Corys, Tetras etc) seem to like pH up to approx. 7.5, and mine's higher than that. I need to test my tap water just to see what I get from that. A lot of people online say fish will adjusy to higher (or lower) pH fine, and not to be worrying about 'chasing' a pH number. But I don't want to keep fish in a enviroment that's not right for them.

Doesn't seem to be any way to naturally lower pH without also changing the water colour, and I'm not sure how I feel about that either.

Hmmmmm...

J.

drift wood (bog wood) and peatmoss will leach tannin into the water turning it a brownish colour, but that doesnt last forever either!!!
Personally Im a big fan of the darker water!!! but not everyone is!
(just for reference Brackish water is a mixture of Marine and Fresh water i.e. River estury)
I wouldnt go deciding on stock yet, Consider using RO water to help reduce your ph aswell

test your tap water and see if it matches your aquarium at the moment.....

Interesting, I didn't know the water wouldn't stay brown forever. And clearly I also didn't know what Brackish meant, thanks for clarifying that!

I'll look into RO and see what pH I get from the tap when I get home.

I've also read that over time when a tank 'matures' the pH will drop, but I don't really know by how much.

Thanks...

J.

Thats one of the reasons I suggested testing your tap water direct from the tap....
I noticed my own ph was a bit higher during the cycle process than the tap water was anyway!!!
(not sure if this is common or weather im just a freak of nature lol)

There is only a certain amount of Tannin in the wood and moss, so as you do water changes you effectively remove the tannin from the system again!

Ive only today bought "blackwater extract" to replicate this environment again!!! I havent had dark water in quite a while and miss the look of it tbh

Thanks for all your advice Hammie!

Ok, I've done some more reading (having a busy Friday in work clearly!).

Apart from checking my Tap Water pH etc., I've been looking into what to do if I have high pH water and I want to lower it.

From what that article you quoted says Hammie, I'd be looking at putting in some filter media to reduce the pH, and leaving it until it's where I want it to be. And then I'd also be looking at adding driftwood to help keep it at that level. Does that all sound ok?

If so, guess what, I've a few questions!

1. It'd be better to do this sooner rather than later, right? I started my cycle on Tuesday, I don't plan to have any fish for another 6 weeks, so I could get a lot of this done before the fish arrive, and thereby give them less stress.

2. If I only need to drop my pH from around 8 to around 7 or so (for example), would the driftwood do that on its on (over time of course) or would I still need something in the filter as well?

3. If I do need something in the filter, I really should do that sooner rather than later, as I'm only just starting to grow the bacteria in the filter, so I don't want them to grow on one media and then take that out to replace it with 'pH lowering' media (for want of a better word).

4. However, I don't leave the pH lowering media in all the time, I remove it after the pH has lowered enough. So that means I lose whatever bacteria has grown on it, right? Hence question #2, would driftwood on its own be enough?

5 Finally (well, for this post anyhow), is there a particular wood I should be using? Or is it just down to what 'size / shape' I like?

Thanks, and sorry for all the questions. I really want to have the aquarium as stable as possible, with as good values for pH etc. as possible, before I get my fish...

J.

If you are using ammonia solution to attempt to kick start the tank, then the pH is likely to tend towards being highish.....because ammonia is a base (and it will also be a buffer....not a good one, but a buffer nontheless).

Thanks Ian. Your posts are always very informative, but it was nice to have one I could understand without re-reading (due to my lack of knowledge, not due to your posts!)

So, I should hopefully see a lower pH from the tap water than what I got in the tank. And if I do, I would expect the tank water to, over time, approach the tap water pH once I have the cycle done.

Once again, the next step really is testing my tap water!

J.

A bit of good news, tap pH is approx 7.8, compared to tank pH of approx. 8.2.

So, to my newbie mind, I'm reading that to say that all things being equal, I could reasonably expect my tank pH to get closer to 7.8 over time, especially after the tank has cycled.

So, also to my newbie mind, I'm thinking that adding some wood might be enough to decrease the pH that bit more (I'd be happy with around 7.5), without having to add Peat to the filter. Any idea, or is it even possible to guess, how much of a pH drop you would expect from adding real wood to a tank?

Thanks...

J.