Breeding !!!

After recently chatting with a long term fish keeper from the forum we talked about species of fish which aren't very common in the hobby but from reading some topics from this and other forums it appears people are in fact keeping and breeding some of these fish but are not making it common knowledge due to pm pestering looking for off spring. Also in our discussion we spoke about top quality fish and where to get them? While I know the lfs sponsoring this forum try to please what's being demanded sometimes people are turned off certain shops due to bad experiences after purchasing from said shop only to find through no fault of the lfs the quality of fish is not always up to scratch or potentially carrying a disease which can cause severe problems in your tank due to the wholesalers they import from mass breeding/over breeding and poor genetic's etc to name but a few and the recession forcing prices and thus quality lower (after all it is a business which needs to make money which is common sense ) And before the thread is replied to "quarentine" some new fish keepers might not learn this until after such experience .

So my questions are this :

A) what uncommon/rare species have people got in their tanks?
why don't more shops try to source good quality fish from breeders in Ireland ( reducing transport stress on the fish while conserving rare species)?
C) what are the pro's and cons of question A in your opinion?
D) would people pay more for good quality or are prices too expensive to start with ie someone in the line making too much mark up!

Hi Buster,

you make a good point about the quality of fish available from some fish shops. I am sure there are plenty of rare and unusual species being bred by people in this country and I know of a few breeders myself who always took great care with husbandry and the conditions they keep their breeding pairs in. I think part of the problem with shops buying stock from local breeders is the scale of supply. Unfortunately while the fish may be available locally, it appears to be in small quantities with a lot of species.
Another problem seems to be paranoia about buying fish from an "unknown" breeder. It can take a huge effort to gain a reputation as someone that fish shops would trust as a supplier. Add to that the fact that most shops will not pay for fish you bring to them, they offer store credit which often puts small scale breeders off bringing fish to the shops.
Based on the experiences of the few local breeders I know myself, they tend to have a small network of like minded people and the fish bred tend to make it no further than this network.
Unfortunately I dont have any rare species myself at present. Have a lot of central and south American cichlids and I have been trying to source several species of cichlosoma for what seems like eternity just cant get them here. So I can guarantee when I do get them, i will breed from the stock i get. Problem is that to get them I am realistically looking at shipping in a large group of each from a german breeder. Expensive to say the least, huge risks in the stock potentially not surviving the shipping process and also a significant risk of never seeing any return for the investment. Then again, am I looknig for the fish because I want them, or because I would like to breed them for profit. I think its more of the first, but given the cost of acquiing the fish, it makes sense to breed from them too.

just my 2 cents

on a separate matter, you have not named any shops or forum members, so I dont see any reason why the thread would be sent to quarantine

Cheers,

Bill.

I think bill has I right shops are reluctant to trust small breeders and generally Irish breeders are small scale and wouldn be able too keep up with the demand from a good fish shop as for the price I think this would effect sales people already find prices high but if they were to go higher it could stop people from buying

Just my opinion. Paul

These are always good questions for a discussion and debate.

The answer is, though, an Essay.

But to add an appendix to that essay, maybe a query on what is an uncommon fish and why it is an uncommon fish needs to be addressed.

My personal experience in this goes back many years of breeding fish that were expensive and not too common in the day. When the 'latest' Malawi or Tanganyikan cichlids came available, I'd buy wild ones (and they cost a packet....even for fish which today are a few euro), breed them where I could and then sell the young at very cheap prices simply to get these fish popular and affordable.

I never had any problems in getting shops to take the fish....afterall, they had a choice of either getting some rarely supplied captive bred TRopheus or Frontosa or Aulonocara for cheap from me....or get a spuriously supplied wild caught fish costing an arm and a leg.

I made money from that, and buyers could get fish that were starting to become 'popular'.

Ditto the same with Discus.

But, as a fish breeder, there was no challenge in breeding those types of fish.....it was actually quite boring.

So...now start to look at fish which I would encourage people to have a go at breeding:
but there is one slight problem with many of the fish that I would now encourage people to breed......breeding is sometimes difficult, the financial rewards are zero as many of those fish can be got for next to nothing from the wilds.

In recent posts (here and on the LFKS forum), I'm trying to champion the breeding of Crenuchid tetras (sailfin tetras, Weitzmanni tetras etc)........these are not common, not easy to breed, and cost nothing if wild caught.
Would, however, a breeder of such uncommon fish find a market? ummm....??

Of fish that may have a nice price attached to them, cichlids such as Nannochromis are also not common. Prices can be high, but, again, could a breeder find a market and help make these 'popular' fish?

Often, if we look at books and forums etc etc, and people ask about 'what fish shall I keep in my 80 gallon tank'.....rarely will anyone every recommend a Nannochromis or a sailfin tetra or an Afrian Butterfly fish.

There is more likely to be the same old same old fish being pushed forward.

Hence, maybe a key point is about why a fish is uncommon.....and then address that.

Ian

Thanks guys for the reply's .

@ billg - this was what I was getting at indirectly there is a small circle or at least elusive group of very good breeders around and I was lucky to chat and visit one of these people. I'm sure with the backing of the Itfs this group could be listed as good maybe after meeting certain requirements laid out by any shops that were interested in participating in this scheme! I see this as being beneficial to both sectors fish keepers and fish shops as top quality fish are being supplied and hopefully at a reasonably price and due to the group of uncommon fish being supplied large quantities are not really needed! This may need more work but just an idea particularly in increasing the interest in the hobby and keeping in it.

@ John h - is this not the point of a forum for discussions like this ?? Surely you can express your personal opinion on the matter while keeping names out ! This is the reason I started the thread!

@ paulcavan - do you really think it would be expensive as from my own experience the breeders on the forum don't generally seem to look for much money for them in which case the lfs must be making extraordinary mark up my attitude to this would be while setting this scheme up an agreement relating to rates should be finalized with local breed fish as the breeders are trying to help the hobby opposed to make money while the shops can make profit but not as much as maybe normal maybe the tanks with these fish could be marked "locally breed" distinguishing the difference! I think this approach may encourage interest into the lfs which may result in additional sales maybe dry goods etc! While helping the hobby.

@ Ian -this is why I asked question A as to what uncommon or unusual breeds people had this would specifically be aimed at the species which are not commonly on a lfs order sheet! Awareness can be raised through the forum as in experienced fish keepers often look for fish which people have shared experience for and often coloration is a factor ! This is why I say if their was an interest in such a scheme a small focused working group may be required but the process and decisions be transparent and possibly discussed on the forum.

I would like to hear the lfs views on the subject or is this a subject that they want to avoid??

I personally have only been keeping fish for the past four years and would not class my self as experienced enough to try push such a scheme alone and to be honest the idea only really came after talking to someone with 10 times more experience who highlighted a couple of fish they had that are no longer popular which they said was a shame.

Thanks
Damien

The ITFS have just re-started the Breeders classes to get some sharing of experiences etc going.

There is always, however, a potential problem of keepers going into commercial breeding: there is a great potential that it can ruin the 'hobby' side for a keeper; in some places it has even been a driving force in relegating some species of fish to 'off-the-shelves' (and anyone who has been keeping fish since the 70s and before will know what I mean).

So, for that there needs to be a balance in the philosophy of why a fish is bred commercially by breeders.

On a related note, my opinion on transparency is simple: if I have bred a fish, then I am willing to share any hints-n-tips with others.......there has been too many 'mystical secret recipes' going around to be of any good to the 'hobby'.

Yep.....I'm sounding like an old hippy.

Ian

Ian this exactly what I wanted to find out could you please elaborate more on the potential to ruin the hobby ??

Although I meant the tendency to ruin one persons interest in the hobby, it may go further as well.

Having local bred fish in shops is not going to ruin the hobby for anyone. In fact, I'd like to see more of that.

But when dollar signs start appearing in front of peoples eyes in what should be just a hobby for them, then that is when the whole driving philosophy starts to wilt.

I have seen so many going all out to breed Discus fish....such breeding does not advance the hobby at all, and money may be a driving force behind it.

Ditto where the days of Tilapia buttikoferi breeding.....although I think that those days have long gone.

Any fish that is essentially easy to breed (although there are physical brutality problems with buttikoferi) and commands a high price tend to be the ones that many people will gravitate to when dollars signs start appearing.

In the reptile world, hobbyists going into 'part-time trading' by either dodgy dealing in car-parks or breeding snakes etc (on the basis that some sell for a small fortune) is also a big problem. It tends to push things into a mono-culture rather a diversity, and when money starts to rule a hobby then the hobby takes second place.

Not everyone who breeds for money does go that route though.
The money that I used to make from breeding would go to fund my research in filtration design and in the costs of system for breeding marine fish (in the 70s, things were not 'off the shelf' and decent equipment and large tanks were expensive) or the fish were given away so cheaply (or for free to the right people )that that simply enabled other fish keepers to get uncommon fish.

Many of the contemporaries that I knew at the time were 'investing' in Discus, Malawis, Tanganyikans as a trade commodity. Things did not always go right for those people, and then (after snobbing around societies looking down on other keepers) would sell-up and leave a bitter taste within the hobby.
Now, that is how things were in the UK....I doubt the irish fish keeping scene was as big at that time, and so would not have seen so much of that rubbish going on.

Now, as for fish to breed to sell to a LFS....I'm pretty sure that if someone could supply a guaranteed constant supply of Cardinal Tetras then the LFS would gladly want to speak. One-off spawnings may not be worth the hassle for a shop.
On the other hand, I doubt any LFS would want a constant supply of Convict Cichlids.

Having said some of the negative things about turning a hobby into a trade, I do believe that it would be great to encourage people to breed uncommon fish even if the shops don't take them at this present time.

There were days when you'd get more Eqyptian Mouth Brooders in a shop than Guppies....but nowadays, you'd be hard-pressed to find such fish easily available.
I certainly would like to see some fish that we often used to see back in tanks......but then if the fish-keeping community does nothing to market such fish (or gives them bad-press) then shops won't sell them (and hence, won't stock them).

Ian

Thanks for that Ian ! Would some of these pitfalls not be alleviated with an Itfs sponsored scheme and by that I mean before they could enter the breeding program they would have had to met certain criteria ie it was an UN common breed on a pre determined list etc thus in encouraging the promotion of the hobby rather then the money! All prices could possible be pre negotiated so as to keep the trading fair and the cost to the hobbyist who we are looking to encourage ! While also keep the money making sharks out of it!

This all might be fantasy but surely it would be worth a further look with a few more people participating in the discussion from both sides of the fence!

Just a couple of observations.
The shops wouldn't need a regular supply of the uncommon species as then they would become common and would lose part of the attraction.
As for fish shops not taking them, I regularly see in certain shops locally bred fish.
Shops give store credit rather than cash as they have to house and feed the fish until they sell.
For a lot of fish keepers store credit is fine as we all have our preferred shops and buy everything in those 1 or 2 shops.
Anyone who wants cash for fish can go on forums and sell for cash.

Any of the guys who are breeding fish are usually well known by their fish shops and as such neither would need to worry about reputation and quality etc.

A recommended list of breeders would only be required where there was going to be wholesale commercial breeding and supply. Is that really a possibility here.
Who regulates the current suppliers in Europe Asia and elsewhere.

Just my tuppence worth

@Buster, what type of fish would come into the 'uncommon' class?

Are we talking about good quality honey, dwarf, indian gourami, angelfish (good quality old-style wild-coloured)? or things like South American soil-diving killifish? etc

ian

Ian I didn't have any particular species in mind but I'm sure one of the old hands on here would be able to suggest something !

@ pat that is my point relating to supply due to them
Being uncommon the quantity required would not be massive such as a tetra etc but it would give some fish keepers the chance to add some of these less common fish to their tanks and not just the people in the loop!

Buster wrote:

Ian I didn't have any particular species in mind but I'm sure one of the old hands on here would be able to suggest something !

@ pat that is my point relating to supply due to them
Being uncommon the quantity required would not be massive such as a tetra etc but it would give some fish keepers the chance to add some of these less common fish to their tanks and not just the people in the loop!

@Buster, that's not the answer I wanted.
I wanted to see what YOU thought might be uncommon fish. I certainly know what old codgers like myself may think are uncommon.

I would like to see some of the 'once popular fish' back as 'popular' again, and not relegated to the bottom division of fish to own.

ian

Ian I thought that was the angle alright! Unfortunately I'm only in the game 4 years or so and all the fish that I have been exposed to until recently would be readily available ! It's only when the old hands mention a previous favorite of theirs do you get to learn something different!

4 years of hard work, doing things right, and developing skills is worth 40 years of never bothering to learn a thing. So, don't put 4 years down as 'only 4 years'.
(yes....that is contentious).
I probably found out more in my first 4 years that I have in my last 36 years of keeping.

Everyone has an opinion as to what they might think is uncommon or desirable in a shop....irrespective of how long they have been fish keeping.

What would be interesting to see is new comers to fish keeping asking about specific 'seemingly uncommon fish', and have the old mushy peas informing that 'well...them fish used to be everywhere'.
That will help add detail to the history of fish-keeping.

ian

Well Ian you did mention Egyptian fish earlier maybe you could write up something on them for the rest of us if you had the time!