Mysterous Angel Deaths

Hi,

I had three angels that were healthy and thriving. I added a fourth (half black) just over a week ago. However, that fish never settled and died after a couple of days.

The next day, I noticed my three original angels gasping at the surface and acting odd. Only two of them were eating. I didn't take any chances and moved them to my quarantine tank. The water parameters in my main tank were fine.

Ammonia 0
NitrITE 0
NitrATE 10
GH 12
KH 11
pH 6.6

There were no obvious signs of illness bar the gasping and all my other fish seemed fine. The only change I made recently (besides adding the half black) was to crank up the CO2. I got a JBL CO2 test kit which indicated my level was too low. I cranked it up until the test kit showed an nice green colour which indicated the level was adequate.

I suppose it's possible that the angels are more sensitive than my other fish and that level of CO2 was too much for them. I have since reduced the CO2 and increased surface agitation just in case that was the problem. However, if that was the case, I would have expected them to recover pretty quickly when I moved them to my quarantine tank.

However, they didn't really improve. One of them (gold crown) was on his side this morning. I did a water change, but he died this afternoon. The other two are just sitting beside the heater with little movement. They have also stopped eating. One of them has also lost half of one of his tentacles (not sure what the proper name for them is).

I have started treating them with Sterazin in case the half black brought in some type of parasite. However, there are still no symptoms and no improvement. I also doing twice daily water changes.

Are there any diseases out there that only affect Angels? If it was a parasite, I would also expect it to be affecting my other fish.

Any help would be appreciated as this one is a bit of a mystery.

Thats excellent information Ken and I think its enough for us to make a diagnosis. Well my diagnosi for its two pence worth.

Reason 1, which I think is probably the right reason..
You said you cranked the co2 up. This would have caused your ph to drop.
This in turn would have caused massive breeding problems for your fish and give the apperance of Gill flukes.
What was your ph before you increased the co2.

Reason 2.
You just added a new fish.From your post you did not quarantine him.
He could have brought any external parasite(Costis/Chilodenalla/Trich.)
or a mutation of them into your tank.(Are yo fish shedding any slime). This could have caused his Pelvic fins to literally rot away. I had first hand experience of this..Twice.. with Discus and it broke me heart.I don`t know how badly it effects Angels though. I is known in the far east as Discus plaque but is not a plaue as such and it will take all night to tell the story of that.
Save it for the cclub meeting.
I know you have already started with Sterazin and I found it v good for flukes. But I would salt bath the Angels for a few days. I know people think it is archaic but it is effective. If you don`t want to salt bath then maybe add Malachite green to the tank. Personally I don`t like using it.
I have treatment that contains Formaldehide in small doses and it is good.
Its there if you want some.

Hopefully it is just a sigh that the pH has dropped and there are no parasites in your tank. Keep us posted.

Hi Ken,
I don't think you had a pH crash. Your carbonate hardness is a bit too high for that.
What I imagine is that your new angels carried some sort of parasite and unfortunately infected the other three. Some parasites are species specific and don't affect any other fish. That would explain why only your angels are sick.
Where did your fish come from,i.e. were they imported from South East Asia or mainland Europe or the UK?
A lot of fish from Asia are inbred (especially the colour morphs) and the breeding populations are kept stable with an antibiotics brew.
They die easily when confronted the usual aquarium environment because they have no natural resistance against usually quite harmless organisms. They do also carry pathogens that will not be obvious but will start to make the fish sick soon after they get out of the antibiotics brew.

You should always quarantine any new fish for at least two weeks

Hi,

No didn't have a pH crash. pH moved from 6.8 to 6.6 when I craked up the CO2.

Anto - when you say salt baths, is that aquarium salt or epsom salts? Sounds like it's worth a try.

They aren't shedding slime. No symptoms bar the breathing difficulty which seems to have gone away now that they are in the quarantine tank. However, they are very lethargic and won't eat.

Yes, should have quarantined. Learn the hard way as usual.

Sometimes the only way I seem to learn.

Hey Ken, is Rush water the same as your water?
I have to dig out my test kit and check my water.
Are you adjusting your ph cos balbriggan water has a ph of 7.8.

I have a few Gourami which are IMO as nice (if not nicer) as Angels but a lot more forgiving. I just lost my first Dwarf the other day and that was (I'm almost certain) due to bullying by a giant catfish.

My pH out of the tap varies between 7.6 and 8.2. It's currently 8.2. I add C02 to my main tank which keeps it stable at 6.8. My water isn't too hard at 12 GH. I believe it's much harder in Balbriggan.

It sure is, out of my tap ph is 7.8 and gh around 16!
We have to clean our kettle out every other use.

Salt bath.
6.5 t/spoons to 5l of Aquarium in a bucket.
Bath the fish for 10 minutes and the replace in the main tank. 3 x daily for about a week. Works best if you can do w/c everytime you do a salt bath.I have meds too if you want them.

Hi Anto,

I did a bit of reading and added aquarium salt to the tank. I have 20l in there so added 50g (2.5g per litre). They still aren't eating so it doesn't look good. Still no obvious signs of disease.

I'm continuing to use the Sterazin and doing two water changes a day (50%) and replenishing the meds.

Looks like I may have to get the shovel out of the shed.

How long are they not eating.
The word shovel is now banned from the forum.

This is the third day. They won't last much longer unless there's a turnaround. I've tried feeding them, but they are totally not interested.

These two would take your arm off walking past the tank, nevermind feeding them.

Can I say spade instead?

Are they big Angels and worth saving.
Metronidazole would be your best course of action. Its fairly cheap of a Vet. 500mg per 40l every 8 hours. 45% w/c required before each treatment but I got awat with 50% daily. Do this for 10 days or if they are eating add it to the food. I have a syringe if you want it. It can stess fish out more but I had great luck with it whne I had Discus.

They're not very big. I'd say they're about 3 inches tops. One is smaller than the other.

I have some Metronidazole but didn't consider using it. I'll see how they do for the next couple of days. Not sure it will make much difference at this stage.

I used it on a Discus that had not eaten for 6 weeks and it cured it.
If it is Flagellets I don`t know how long it takes for them to break through the Intestinal wall.

If it would be flagellates you would see some white faeces even if they haven't eaten for a while. They are basically sheeding their stomach lining.

Have you tried feeding them chopped up garden worms or whiteworm?

No real improvement today. However, there is a definite physical symptom - the tail of the smaller angel is almost eaten away. I presume this points to some type of external parasite?

They are still not eating but appear to be a little more active.

I think I can safely assume that the Sterazin isn't doing anything. I also added salt yesterday which may be helping.

I have some Mertonidazole. Would that be of any benefit? I will also raise the temperature into the low 30s to see if I can stilulate their appetite and hopefully speed up the life cycle of whatever parasite is there.

Can I continue the salt with the metro? I believe increasing the temperature with it is fine.

Hi Ken,
can you post a picture of the fish?

Thanks guys. I'll post a picture later today.

I did a bit of reading last night - back in the mid 80's there was some type of virus going around which basically destroyed the fish's immune system and resulted in many symptoms such as finrot, ulcers and shedding slime, etc. It effected discus, angels and some other cichlids such as severums and oscars. It was nicknamed Angel/Discus Plague or Angel/Discus Aids.

It is extremely contagious and can spread from tank to tank through the air. It was thought to be history, but appears to have made something of a comeback in the last couple of years.

Symptoms include the fish becomming shy and retreating to the back of the tank. Only effects the above fish so if the fish are in a community tank, it appears to have no effect on the other inhabitants. Fish stop eating, loose colour and develop numerous symptoms including finrot.

Most fish will die, but some do survive. However, those that survive can be contageous for up to 6 months. Treatment basically involves treating symptoms in the hope that the fish survives.

Not sure if this is what I have, but it sounds familiar.

@John,
while I do agree that most fish from Singapore should be avoided I have some rather nice red turq discus from there and no problems with them. Actually I wouldn't have bought them had I known in advance where they came from.

Anyway, if it is a viral infection, antibiotics will do no good since they only work against bacteria. What often goes hand in hand with viral infections though is a secondary bacterial infection. (That's why AIDS patients often die of pneumonia).
The fish's immune system might be able to deal with the virus itself (the same as the human body can mostly deal with flue viruses) if you suppress the bacterial infection.
Antibiotics are not freely available in Ireland and I don't know how well you know your GP. You will need a broadspectrum antibiotic that is effective against gram negative and positive bacteria. Flagyl or any of its generic knock-offs is good. You can buy antibiotics for fish use over the net or if you know somebody in the US where you can purchase them in any pet shop could send you some over.

Nope, you are right John.
It's the tradename.

However, I forgot to mention in my last post that even if your fish get over the viral infection they might still be able to pass on the virus to previously unaffected fish and these could encounter the same problems.

ken
i remember the singapore angel plague only too well and reading your posts there are chilling simularities. the stuff you read up on and everything john and holger wrote is spot on, i would only add that the carrier fish died first and then the speed of the infection through the formerly healthy fish was astonishing. on one occasion i got an emergency call from a shop owner pal (a very good fishkeeper). he had closed the shop and i was shocked by what was happening. there were two six foot tanks full of large south american cichlids (severum festivum angel and uaru) .gasping at the surface and literally falling apart. fins and lumps of flesh were falling off. we tried everything to no avail and all fish died within a short time. like yourself he had added a new fish to the tank and when it got sick moved it to another tank thereby infecting both tanks very quickly.the speed and violence of the infection was possibly because of the large size of the fish and the fairly crowded conditions.

The same happened with discus and nobody is entirely sure how the disease is spread. Of course fish in the same tank will succumb to the desease. However, there were suggestions at the time that it could also be airborne.
I remember the case of one discus breeder who had close to a thousand discus killed. He got fish in from Singapore to freshen up the bloodlines. Put the fish in a quaratine tank as one should. All the fish from Singapore croaked it but all his other fish started dying off as well soon after. Syptoms pretty much what Derek described. No equipment, water was used on his breeding and growing on tanks was used in his quarantine tank. I think the only fish that survived were in his showtank upstairs. His breeding facilities were in the cellar

Another good comparison is still. Neon Tetra Disease I have heard of this crossing over to whole The Cardinal Family.

@Russell,
negative on that one ,thankfully, cardinals won't get neon disease. There are enough tetras that will get it though.

Holger

Hi Ken.
Too lazy to write. Tired from last night and going out again. I have had first hand experience with Discus plague.Metro won`t do any good for plague. I will be in your area on Monday morning if you want me to drop down stuff. 0876113450 is my number. Don`t rign tonight as I am going out and I will only burn the ears off you with drunken expert advice.

Thanks Anto. I'll give you a call tomorrow afternoon.

Hi,

Pictures as requested.



This is the smaller of the two and the one showing phyisical symptons. As you can see, his caudal fin (tail) is gone. Both his pectorals are also half gone. Besides being listless and not eating, that's his only symptoms.



This is the bigger of the two. You can see that all his fins are in tact. Even though the smaller fish is ravaged with fin rot, this guy's immune system seems to be able to fight it (for the moment). You can also see that his dorsal fin is curled down which suggests all is not well. Besides being listless and not eating, he has no other symptoms.