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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)

Hi,

John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.

I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.

With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.

I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.

If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.

I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.

I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.

Thank you
Darragh Sherwin

API Master Kit test results

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14 Oct 2013 21:57 #1 by Jasonb (Jason Browne)
API Master Kit test results was created by Jasonb (Jason Browne)
Hi there...

Work continues on getting my tank ready, but I've a question about using the API Master Kit.

I tested the pH of the tank water today. The pH test cam back with 7.6, which as I understand it, means the ph is 7.6 or higher (as 7.6 is as high as that test goes). However, I also did the High pH test and got a result of 7.4! So I'm getting the highest possible reading from the low ph test and the lowest possible reading from the high pH test.

So, do I 'assume' that by pH is around 7.4-7.6, or do I assume that I'm doing something wrong? :)

J.

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14 Oct 2013 22:42 #2 by JohnH (John)
Replied by JohnH (John) on topic API Master Kit test results
Jason,
I think - but this would need to be confirmed either way (cue IGM) - that as you are at the extremes of each test's capability that you have found what is almost 'no man's land'.
Was the water taken from the tank at the very same time for both tests?
Personally (and I must stress that word) given that you have no fish yet and the pH is almost certainly going to drop I wouldn't be overly worried about testing until it drops into the colour range of the low test's capability.
Can anyone else (preferably who has experience with the API kit) make any better suggestions for Jason?

John
Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.


ITFS member.



It's a long way to Tipperary.

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14 Oct 2013 23:48 #3 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
Replied by igmillichip (ian millichip) on topic API Master Kit test results
These are 2 different sets of chemical....and they cannot be cross-compared.

Different temperatures will also affect pH (as will many other things on testing pH).

Ideally, any test should be done in at least triplicate. But in this case it may make no difference anyway.

pH of 7.2 to 7.6 would be a reasonable range for a many freshwater set-ups.......so I'm wondering why API select indicators that cut-off within that range for their high and low pH test ranges.

I will not knock API test kits in favour of other off-the-shelf tests. They are all the same: simple cheap approximations BUT good enough for fish keeping so long as the keeper does not read too much into their readings.

ian
Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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15 Oct 2013 05:40 #4 by gunnered72 (Eddy Gunnered)
Replied by gunnered72 (Eddy Gunnered) on topic API Master Kit test results
You CAN assume your PH is 7.4 to 7.6 yes!

Be aware that PH can vary "slightly" in a tank at different times of the day due to different things.....This wont bother the fish at all because its natural and gradual....

Something also to remember with the API master test kit is that the reagent (chemical dropper) bottles need to be shook vigorously before testing...

ESPECIALLY the NitrAte number 2 bottle....Its not in the instructions but when doing a NitrAte test with an API test kit shake the hell out of the reagent bottles for 2 minutes previous to testing (especially the number 2 bottle)...

Another thing to remember is to always rinse out the test tubes well (with water only) after testing...Dirty test tubes can lead to dodgy readings....

Welcome to the Chemistry world of fish keeping :P Try not to go too deep into it or your head will explode LOL
Unless of course your interested in all that stuff.In that case it will open a whole new world to ya :P

For now I suggest to stick to the basics (Ammonia, NitrIte, NitrAte and PH)

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15 Oct 2013 08:33 #5 by Jasonb (Jason Browne)
Replied by Jasonb (Jason Browne) on topic API Master Kit test results
Thanks for the replies...

The two water samples were taken at the same time. I agree with Ian, it does seem weird that the two tests API offer have a cut off point in and around the 'usual' pH of a tank!

My readings would make more sense to me if the low pH test stopped at 7.4 and the high pH test started at 7.6, then I'd feel very comfortable that my pH is between 7.4-7.6. But considering that the low pH test showed me 7.6, and the high showed me 7.4, it's a bit weird.

But either way, I'm happy enough that my pH is around 7.5ish, and that's accurate enough for me at this stage. I only tested it out of curiosity, I'm not doing pH every day.

API do instruct you to shake the bottles, but only really the Nitrate ones, they don't mention shaking the rest.

Thanks as always for your help!

J.

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15 Oct 2013 13:15 #6 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
Replied by igmillichip (ian millichip) on topic API Master Kit test results
The difference in acid concentration between 7.4 and 7.6 is only about 1.5.

But you cannot assume that the pH is between 7.4 and 7.6 though as that is not what the kits will tell you.

The reagents used in the pH tests are different strength weak acids or bases.....small deviations in sample size or drop size can have varying effects (if you add too much pH reagent then what you would be doing is testing the pH of the pH test reagent rather than the water).

What is important is that the pH is reasonably stable.

On the Nitrate test, the API one is basically the same as most other off-the-shelf Nitrate test kits in that it is a nitrite test kit with something like zinc (or other similar reducing agent) added to the test to convert nitrates to nitrites in the test tube.

ian
Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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23 Oct 2013 18:36 #7 by Jasonb (Jason Browne)
Replied by Jasonb (Jason Browne) on topic API Master Kit test results
I got sone unusual results today...

My tank is just over three weeks into a Fishless cycle. For the last week I've been adding Ammonia every evening and by the next evening it's been 0, so I've added more.

However, this evening the Ammonia was 1ppm. Any reason why, after 1 week, it stopped getting rid of all Ammonia in 1 day?

Also, the pH was reading somewhere around 7.4 or 7.6 about 9 days ago, but when I tested it this evening it's now 6?

Any ideas why these changes have happened? Anything I should be worrying about? At least there's no fish involved yet...

Thanks...

J.

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23 Oct 2013 18:51 #8 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
Replied by igmillichip (ian millichip) on topic API Master Kit test results
Ammonia is poisonous to nitrifying bacteria and will halt their action.

That is one explanation.
Another explanation is reduction of nitrates or nitrites to form ammonia (and a host of other chemical reactions).
And another (amongst others) is incorrect testing.

The drop in pH could be related to the maturation process of the tank:
if you have low alkalinity (or suitable RedOx)then the process of nitrosofication and nitrification will tend to produce nitrous acid or nitric acid instead of nitrites or nitrates.
The production of nitrous or nitric acid will lower the pH (and could cause an acid crash).

Part of the problem is the addition of ammonia in the fishless "cycle".

ian
Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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23 Oct 2013 19:17 #9 by Homer (Kevin)
Replied by Homer (Kevin) on topic API Master Kit test results

You CAN assume your PH is 7.4 to 7.6 yes!

Be aware that PH can vary "slightly" in a tank at different times of the day due to different things.....This wont bother the fish at all because its natural and gradual....

Something also to remember with the API master test kit is that the reagent (chemical dropper) bottles need to be shook vigorously before testing...

ESPECIALLY the NitrAte number 2 bottle....Its not in the instructions but when doing a NitrAte test with an API test kit shake the hell out of the reagent bottles for 2 minutes previous to testing (especially the number 2 bottle)...

Another thing to remember is to always rinse out the test tubes well (with water only) after testing...Dirty test tubes can lead to dodgy readings....

Welcome to the Chemistry world of fish keeping :P Try not to go too deep into it or your head will explode LOL
Unless of course your interested in all that stuff.In that case it will open a whole new world to ya :P

For now I suggest to stick to the basics (Ammonia, NitrIte, NitrAte and PH)


And never put your Finger on top of the tube, always use the plastic bung or cap provided!

H.
The Glass is always greener on the other side.


It's NOT "Chee lick", NOT "Chee Chee Licks"!!! Cichlids is pronounced as "Sick Lids"!!!!!

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23 Oct 2013 21:02 - 23 Oct 2013 21:05 #10 by Jasonb (Jason Browne)
Replied by Jasonb (Jason Browne) on topic API Master Kit test results
Don't worry, I always use the cap! :)

Obviously it's hard to know exactly what's going on Ian, especially with the limited data I've got. Would you suggest only adding Ammonia every second day? As I understand it, I need to keep adding Ammonia during the fishless cycle to keep the bacteria alive?

I agree, incorrect testing is another possible issue, though I did do the Ammonia test twice. I'll see what I get tomorrow evening.

Finally, I'm not doing water changes until the tank is cycled, but would there be any harm in a very small water change just to remove some of the dirt / algae building up in the tank? I know that would reduce the current Nitrite level, but only a bit surely?

Thanks...

J.
Last edit: 23 Oct 2013 21:05 by Jasonb (Jason Browne).

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23 Oct 2013 23:09 #11 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
Replied by igmillichip (ian millichip) on topic API Master Kit test results
Personally, I think the ammonia dosing fishless cycle is not very well documented in the documents supporting it. In fact, I have yet to see any piece on the method that is correct.

Many of the methods claim to be "scientific" yet get the science wrong: in such a case, you can't believe what they say.

As you've guessed, I'm not a fan of the ammonia dosing method ;)

ian
Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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26 Oct 2013 09:31 - 26 Oct 2013 09:32 #12 by Jasonb (Jason Browne)
Replied by Jasonb (Jason Browne) on topic API Master Kit test results
...
Last edit: 26 Oct 2013 09:32 by Jasonb (Jason Browne). Reason: Wrong thread!

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03 Nov 2013 19:39 #13 by Jasonb (Jason Browne)
Replied by Jasonb (Jason Browne) on topic API Master Kit test results
I'm afraid I've more questions about water testing, sorry!

I'm happy my tank is now cycled, and I'm getting 0 Ammonia and 0 Nitrites every evening. However, I haven't been too confident reading the Nitrates, some of the colours on the chart are fairly similar, and I want to get Nitrates nice and low before I add some fish! From what I can see, I was getting results of about 40-80ppm Nitrates, which surprised me a bit after doing an 85% water change.

So I brought some water in with me to Seahorse today to get them to test it. They confirmed my Ammonia and Nitrites are 0, and said Nitrates are 0 also. I was delighted with this and headed home thinking I'm almost there, I'll have my fish soon.

However, the more I thought about it, the more I thought that I should have *some* Nitrates, I mean, I'm adding a bit of Ammonia every day. So, for the hell of it, I decided to do my own Nitrates test again. And once again, I got approx. 40-80ppm. I did it again, this time making sure I was shaking both reagent bottles a lot and being as careful as possible. Once again, I got about 40-80ppm!

So, I need advice. Am I doing the test wrong? Did Seahorse? Should I do a fair few water changes over the next week before I finally get fish, to see if I can get the Nitrates down?

Thanks...

J.

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03 Nov 2013 21:27 #14 by Bohrio (Alex Rodriguez)
Replied by Bohrio (Alex Rodriguez) on topic API Master Kit test results
Hi Jason

First, and this is my opinion, never do a 85% water change, not even if your tank has collapsed and nitrates are 10000. Doing an 85% water change could make your tank go through a mini cycle. Personally, even if my ammonia was 4 I would never do more than a 50% water change (in case of an emergency) every each day or 2.

How are you doing the test?

I believe the test is simple enough, 10 drops of solution one and then another 10 drops of solution 2.

This guys explains how to do the test (just remember not to cover the tube with your finger when you are shaking the tube).

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03 Nov 2013 21:52 #15 by Jasonb (Jason Browne)
Replied by Jasonb (Jason Browne) on topic API Master Kit test results
Thanks for your reply. That's pretty much how I'm doing the test, though I'm a bit more strict about following the instructions (like shaking bottle 2 for 30secs etc.) than he is in the video.

Only did the 85% water change as that's what is recommended in the 'fishless cycle' I'm following. I'm not planning to do any that big again.

Just to double check, I've taken a sample of my tap water and left it out overnight, and I'll test the Nitrates in that tomorrow evening to see what I'm getting from the tap water. I'm also thinking of doing a couple of 30% water changes over the week and I should expect to see my Nitrate results drop, hopefully!

J.

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04 Nov 2013 09:13 - 04 Nov 2013 09:15 #16 by Bohrio (Alex Rodriguez)
Replied by Bohrio (Alex Rodriguez) on topic API Master Kit test results
Sorry Jason i didnt know you were doing a fishless cycle. I am not familiar with that process. I have done 90% water changes in the past (no fish) in my big tank too,m but that's because I was using the ADA amazonia substrate and that substrate releases a lot of ammonia into the water, the levels get so high that it will literally melt any plants inside your tank, I was told I would need to do at least 3 water changes, 50%, 70% and 90% during the first 3-5 days.

I am not strick either. I normally just pour the water, pour 10 drops of solution 1, shake for a few seconds, pour the second solution, shake for 10 seconds and leave it
Last edit: 04 Nov 2013 09:15 by Bohrio (Alex Rodriguez).

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04 Nov 2013 12:52 #17 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
Replied by igmillichip (ian millichip) on topic API Master Kit test results
No test result is valid unless you have a control.

Test some deionised water to see if the kit is giving false positives.

You may also need to check each of 1sat or 2nd reagent. There is also a potential that your tank water contains enough reducing agent that that adds to the reducing power of the reagents thus giving false high results.

ian
Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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04 Nov 2013 22:18 #18 by Jasonb (Jason Browne)
Replied by Jasonb (Jason Browne) on topic API Master Kit test results
Just a quick update. I tested some tap water this evening, and it came back with 0-5ppm Nitrates. So that shows that

A) The test kit can give results other than 40-80ppm

B) If the test results are correct, then some water changes should show a reduction in Nitrates in the tank.

I plan to do three 33% water changes over the next week or so, in preparation for getting fish next week. In general I'm hoping that going forward a 33% water change each week should be enough. Anyhow, doing three 33% water changes should reduce the Nitrates by about 70% (not withstanding more Nitrates being created from Ammonia / Nitrites).

I'll see how it goes...

J.

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