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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)

Hi,

John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.

I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.

With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.

I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.

If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.

I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.

I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.

Thank you
Darragh Sherwin

Water for Fish or Fish for Water?

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02 Jul 2014 14:24 #1 by Wackoo (Niall)
Hey everyone!

So i've been wanting to setup a new tank and i've been doing my research and planning etc and it got me thinking...

Are you better to alter your water to suit the fish you want? Or alter the fish you want to suit the water you have?
Which is easier to do? Less expensive? Takes less maintaining?

For example, my water straight out of the cold tap is KH 15 GH 18 PH 7.4
Am i better off in the long run only keeping fish whose requirements meet my water conditions?i know that i can use several different methods to change my water chemistry so i could keep Amazonian fish for example. However i'm not sure if i'm good enough to keep those conditions stable?

any and all thoughts? :)

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02 Jul 2014 15:09 #2 by hammie (Neil Hammerton)
While I rationally should think Choose the fish for the water you have, I honestly cant advise someone to do that as it goes against what I personally have done

My ph is around 8.4 at the min but Im keeping S. Americans and the tank ph is less than 6.5
plenty of options out there to soften the water etc
Fish to suit your water however is more simple

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02 Jul 2014 15:14 #3 by Wackoo (Niall)
Your exactly right hammie, there are options available. how do you get your pH down to 6.5? do you find that it's stable?

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02 Jul 2014 15:24 #4 by hammie (Neil Hammerton)
A combination of TORMEC and Kerry Turf
(reminds me I need a trip to Kerry to collect more turf and I think it might need changed again this week)

Its fairly stable raises slightly if im in a hurry to change water etc. but not enough to make a huge difference

I really do question the necessity to adjust the water parameters some times..... with tank bread stock (maybe 6th 7th or even 10th generation tank bread) does it actually make as big a difference as we think??

Ive seen lads breeding fish without so much as looking at them where we would struggle some times with the proper conditions

maybe im just bitter and jelous but maybe we all put in too much effort to keep the right parameters occasionally

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02 Jul 2014 15:47 #5 by Wackoo (Niall)
I have a bail of shamrock peat moss in the shed and i'm tempted to use it as a substrate in a S.A tank...

but again as i said in the first post i'm still not sure if it's a good idea to go tricking around with the water?

You make a good point hammie, when you get to 6th, 7th, nth generation how dependant are those fish on the conditions that they are found in in the wild? I have no idea and it's a good question for someone who knows to answer :) (that's what the forum is all about)

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02 Jul 2014 17:01 #6 by Q_Comets (Declan Chambers)
It is easier to get fish to match your water and plants also, of course that may not be all that limiting as unless you are getting wild caught delicate fish you probably have a wide variety to choose from. I wonder how many LFSs have different water conditions for different stock.

The moss peat in the external filter should soften things if required also some in the water change bin won't hurt either.

Small hijack here:
hammie if you are coming to kerry I may have to give you a small shopping list ;)

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02 Jul 2014 18:01 #7 by gunnered72 (Eddy Gunnered)
Honestly most fish will adjust to various PH levels once they arent extreme PH levels....7.4 PH is very average...

The exceptions are wild caught fish, Discus who require extremely low PH and African Rift Lake Cichlids who require extremely high PH....

Messing with water chemistry can be very sketchy unless you know exactly what you are doing (its not for the novice) You can cause PH crashes which will wipe out fish overnight...

I would recommend getting fish to suit your tap water but as i said most fish will adjust once acclimated properly....

The other benefit to NOT messing with PH is in your pocket....Altering PH can cost more money on chemicals etc....

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02 Jul 2014 19:59 #8 by Q_Comets (Declan Chambers)
Quick question is it 7.4 straight from tap or after leaving sit for 24 hours?

PH could change over time

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02 Jul 2014 20:27 #9 by Wackoo (Niall)
Thanks for the replys guys!

@gunnered72
I suppose 7.4 pH isn't too high and your right that proper acclamation is very important!

@Q_Comets
Yes that test was done on treated water that I leave in a container for about 3-4 days before my water change. I think the water was sitting for four days.

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02 Jul 2014 21:10 - 02 Jul 2014 21:11 #10 by Jim (Jim Lawlor)
clearly - the answer is "it depends"!

The guys are right - I keep "amazonian" fish in water above ph7 & often fairly hard. I started them in softer water and raised it slowly.

However, if you end up with lots of tanks (Everybody starts with one!) - you might end up keeping fish that suit your water, cos its easier and you can still keep lots of interesting species in ph7.4 and above
Last edit: 02 Jul 2014 21:11 by Jim (Jim Lawlor).

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02 Jul 2014 22:36 #11 by igmillichip (ian millichip)
This is always an interesting topic.
I tend to spend most of my time on fish-question pms on this topic (although questions on Bettas come in pretty hard and faST).

Let's put one group of fish to bed........marine keepers don't quite have a choice of hoping the fish will tolerate the tap water:
that is case where water is changed to suit the fish.

On freshwaters, there are very very few fish that demand conditions very close to their natural habitat.
That number of species, however, does increase when considering breeding certain species.

Now, the main problem of trying to get "perfect water" (oooh....I do hate that term :hammer: ) is that fish that demand certain water conditions for keeping or breeding are most usually ones that demand parameters other than what folk focus on.

By focusing on one or two parameters as targets it is so easy to take some other parameters well off scale.
eg I see keepers adding this that and the other to water to decrease pH yet fail to recognise the unbalanced increase in oxidation potentional or increased conductivity.......recipe for disaster.

Soft approaches such as addition of peat to increase acid content (even if it doesn't change pH) or using coral gravel as a buffer are, however, good and recommended as appropriate.
Other than that, I tend to recommend water changes over messing with water.

ian

Irish Tropical Fish Society (ITFS) Member.

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05 Jul 2014 10:14 #12 by paulv (paul vickers)
Most tank breed fish are happy with a ph 6 to 8 once ammonia and nitrite are 0. Fish can adapt to parameter changes that happen slowly, this is why I dont agree with large 50% plus water changes twice weekly to control disease or high nitrites., it stresses out the fish. With the tap water you have, you can keep many of the fish available. Its a different story if you wish to breed them. Once you have happy healthy fish dont go messing about with the water. 15 to 20% water changes weekly is plenty. Clean the filter sponge every 3 to 4 months.

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