Yet another cycle question..

Hi,

I think my tank (Vision 180) is still cycling but want to confirm I'm not doing something wrong.

Tank was setup just over 4 weeks ago with 6 Rosy Barbs, it had been running for 6 days before that with no fish and after adding Aqua Cycle to it. The Ammonia and Nitrite levels were at approx 0.25ppm for about 2 weeks after the fish were added. I got some water from Holgers filters to help. The Ammonia has jumped to 1ppm and has remained constant at that for the last 2.5 weeks or so, Nitrite level has dropped to 0.

So I've read all the posts about the cycling and expected Ammonia spike followed by the Nitrite spike etc but is it normal for the Ammonia for stay constant for over 2 weeks ? Is 1ppm a spike ??

Nothing I do seems to have any noticeable effect, not feeding for 2-3 days, water changes etc. I'm planning another water change tonight and will see if that has any effect.

So, do I just wait ? Should I try get some more bacteria ?

From reading some of the posts here it seems I'm the longest person waiting for the tank to cycle

Thanks,
Declan.

Fristly, having your tank running for 6 days with no fish will not achieve anything bar tell you that everything is running ok (which you would have known within 24 hours). I know your LFS probalby told you to do this which shows they don't really understand the cycling process.

In order for your tank to start cycling, it needs an ammonia source which means fish unless you're doing a fishless cycle. Therefore, your tank only started cycling after you added fish. I won't reignite the debate on products such as cycle. Some say they work, I and many others disagree.

6 Rosy Barbs is a lot of fish to cycle a 180l tank. I would have expected to see ammonia and nitrite spikes much higher than you mention. It's not unusual to see a spikes of 4.0ppm or more in the early stages of cycling if you're not controlling with daily water changes. Long term exposure to ammonia will seriously stress the fish. How are they looking? I'm surprised you haven't lost any.

Cycling can take up to four weeks or more. Given that you're still seeing ammonia, I would reckon that your tank isn't cycled and you may very well see another nitrITE spike before it's done.

What exactly did you get from Holger? Water from the filter will help, but a piece of the actual media would have been better as it would have contained far more of the beneficial bacteria.

What sort of test kit are you using? Some are less reliabe than others.

Seems a little strange, any chance the test kit is out of date? A little unlikely but possible, if it was a new tank, did you remove the sponges from the filter housing, they are wrapped in plastic when new.

Rushing to ITFS meeting now, will check back later.


Daragh

One more thing Declan - how long from getting the water/media from Holger's tank to getting it into yours? The bacteria will only last about 3 hours without a souce of oxygenated water.

Hi,

The test kits I'm using are both liquid API test kits, one for Ammonia and one for Nitrite. I have some strip tests for Nitrate and PH etc also.

The fish seem fine, all swimming well, eating well - in fact seem hungry if that is an indication of anything. They seem to be picking at the gravel and ornaments a fair bit - maybe normal behaviour ??

I got some water from Holger which was a squeeze from his filters - not sure how long it was in the bag in total, I had it for about 30-40 mins.

The plastic is definitely off the sponges but I did have some doubts about them, I included a pic in another post. The filter was setup when I bought the tank but the colours do not match the standard Juwel setup. I've since also taken out the Carbon sponge as recommended in answer to my other post.

I've just done a 30 litre water change this eve so I will test again now and see if there is any change.

Regards,
Declan.

You seem to be doing everything right. I'd say just stick at it and it should come good in the next couple of weeks.

Keep an eye on the ammonia and don't let it creep any higher. Do a water change at the first signs of any stress to the fish. What you're seeing so far sounds nomal.

why didnt you do a fishless cycle and add ammonia?

this way you get your spikes, your bacteria are running on all cylinders and no fish are harmed in the process !

Results of the latest test dont really show much diff. Ammonia still at 1ppm (it could be around .8 I guess but the scale is 0.5 or 1 and it is definitely closer to the 1.

I might get another test kit tomorrow just to be sure...

Declan,

your tank should be cycled by now. I'd get another test kit since I suspect yours might have been contaminated or is out of date.
I'm in Old Christians on Thursday and I could stop by and have a look at your tank. PM or ring me

Holger

Hi,

Well it doesnt seem to have been the test kit. New test kit is also showing an Ammonia level of 1ppm.

One other possibly relevant piece of info is my pH seems to be around 8. The test kit has both a pH test and a High pH test. The pH test gives a 7.6 result (as high as that scale goes) and the High pH test gives 8 so I assume the 8 value is the accurate one. The strip test I had been using for pH had put it closer to 7 so that is a fair difference. Not sure if that affects the Ammonia levels though.

I'll monitor daily and see if there is any significant change.

Thanks,
Declan

Hi Declan,

You're right in assuming that your pH is 8.0. If you get the hightest on the low pH test, then you use the high pH test to be sure.

My pH out of the tap is also 8.0 which does limit the type of fish you can keep. This is at the higher end of what most community fish can handle but it should be ok for the Rosy Barbs.

However, the pH shouldn't be impacting the ammonia. I'd advise a 25% water chance to bring it down. That's a bit high and your fish will be suffering.

Hi Declan,

From what i'm reading it appears you have done everything right but i think 6 barbs in the first week was a bit of strain on the bio load of the filter. It takes approx 6 weeks to cycle a tank properly so this spike could tapper off. You mention about the colours of the sponges in your filter >> If i remember back to when i had a jewel tank , i think it was a compact filter in a rio 180 , the arrangement for sponges were from the bottom up a coarse blue sponge then a fine blue sponge this was the bottom basket , in next was a green nitrate sponge then black carbon sponge topped by the poly pad. I dont know if they are all set up the same but i would imagine so. To be aware also that the green sponge has to be changed every 4-5 weeks and the poly pad weekly or the green nitrate sponge will leech back into the tank what it is holding. I used to change this green filter sponge every 4 weeks to be safe and I did remove the carbon sponge but thats because it was a planted tank and changed it to another coarse blue sponge and I only used a carbon sponge for cleaning the tank up after treatments , This carbon sponge has only a 5 week operating time which then it has to be replaced.
By the way are you still using the aqua cycle liquid as far as i'm aware this contains a mix of filter bacteria and ammonia as a food source to feed the bacteria Stop using the aqua cycle if you are, just use your dechloronator at water changes see will the ammonia level go down .Then when you are happy just use the cycle every now and then every 3 weeks or so to keep the sponges in good shape.

Give it time and patience and I'm sure it will come good.

Hi,

It is a Juwel compact filter and my question before was related to the fact that I didnt seem to have any blue sponges - they were all various shades of green!

Other post is : www.irishfishkeepers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1419

When I bought the tank the shop told me they had setup the filter but I didnt get any boxes etc so I really dont know what sponges they put in. I have new blue Juwel sponges but I guess changing them now is definitely going back to square one.

I am changing the poly pad every week to 10 days or so.

I only added the AquaCycle on the first day setting up the tank, I havent added it since. I'm using Nutrafin Aqua Plus when changing the water. One thing that just hit me is maybe I'm not using enough of that and the clorine is killing whatever bacteria are there every time I do a water change! Is it any harm to put more of that in than recommended - I've tended to stick with about 0.5 capful per 10 litres of water, maybe too little.

Thanks,
Declan

Hi Declan ,

Those green sponges sound dodgy unless jewel have changed their sponges to green which i dont think they have, some of the guys from the shops should be able to answer that one. In my opinion now this could be your problem those green sponges are nitrate sponges and only have a working life of about 4 weeks when then they need to be changed as they leech back into the tank what they have absorbed i would find out asap if jewel have changed the colour of the sponges and if they haven't buy a coarse blue one and replace one green this week and replace the rest next week with a fine blue sponge and a new green one which should see you through the life of those green sponges you have in. I used and extra blue one as well instead of the carbon sponge that decision is up to yourself, and add some aqua cycle to kick start things. I would doubt seriously that you are using too little aqua-plus in your water with some of these water treatments it is not recommened to use more than needed well with my one anyway, i use the king british safe gaurd which is 10ml per 90 ltrs , i'm not sure on the nutrifin one but it should tell you on the bottle. I know it is not critical with the stress coat if you add a little extra.

Try and find out off Gavin or Serratus those guys would know about the sponges straight away.

Hi Declan,
Since you and I get our tapwater from the same source you shouldn't have a pH of 8 to start off with. Any calcerous stones in the decoration?

Hanelys gave you nitrate removal pads. They are green. Juwel filters have blue sponges plus 1 nitrate removal pad. However, the green sponges can also serve as biofilters. Are there coarse and fine filter pads? Can't make that out in your picture. If yes, Jewel might have changed their sponges. The colour doesn't matter. My filter sponges are black (not carbon pads). They are cut to size from a sheet meant for a pond filter.

Give me a call over the weekend and I'll have a look at it. Your fish seem to be doing Ok so I wouldn't worry too much

Holger

Hi,

No calcerous stone - at least as far as I am aware. The decoration consists of a mill-wheel cottage and a broken bridge, neither of which is made from stone. The rest as plastic plants and pea gravel as substrate.

I'll check the pH of the tap water this eve and see what it is.

Declan.

some pea gravel is not inert and will harden your water and so drive the pH up

a mill-wheel cottage and a broken bridge.

Hmm....does bad taste raise ph?

Listen to Holger there, test your tap water, then put some gravel into the cup and leave it for a few days and test it again.

If your pet shop sold you non inert gravel you can try contacting them to complain.

I would use two cups of water, one with gravel and one without. Test both of them over a couple of days and compare. It's possible that your pH could rise over a couple of days anyway. My pH out of the tap is 7.4. After a couple of days standing, it hits 8.0 which would be my true pH. This is not unusual.

However, this doesn't solve your ammonia problem.

Well it looks like there is definitely something in the tank affecting the pH. The water from the tap is around 7.2 and the tank is reading 8. I've setup too samples now, one straight tap water and one with some gravel so will check those of the next few days.

Still no change in the ammonia levels though still reading 1ppm.

Well actually it seems I have similar water to Ken - both samples, one with gravel and one without, have a pH of 8 after 1 day standing.

Maybe this should be a separate topic to my intial problem but I'd be interested in hearing opinions for suitable fish for a pH of 8 or should I look at adding something to get it back to around 7 ?

Ammonnia levels still at 1 so no change there!

Thanks,
Declan

From reading some of the posts here it seems I'm the longest person waiting for the tank to cycle
.

Mine took close on 4 months because I was adding the dechlorinator after the water went into the tank and not before it went in.
If you had a Nitrite reading and then it went to zero and then your Ammonia went up it sounds like the bacteria were killed off and it was starting all over again....could be wrong,if so I will be corrected.

I also have a small hospital/fry tank and it took 8 weeks for it to come right and that was doing it from experience of the 240l tank.
Patience patience patience and it will come right.

Processor.

Hi,

Thought I would post an update on this...to see if there is anything else I should be doing.

Since the last post the major change has been I've swapped out the original (fairly coarse) pea gravel for some much finer gravel - thanks for all the advice at last weeks SAS meeting!

I did the swap out of the gravel last Sat eve and so there was a water change at that point.

The water params have been pretty constant since with still 1ppm Ammonia registering.

Last night I began to notice a slight reading on the Nitrite (between 0 and .25 ppm) so I did a 40 litre water change.

Tonights test results are :

Ammonia : 1ppm
Nitrite : 0.25ppm
Nitrate : 20 ppm
pH : 8
Temp : 25 C

The fact that I am now getting a Nitrite I think is indicating that the cycle is kicking in - correct ??

Should I do another water change ?

I also bought some Amquel+ but havent used it yet - not sure if I should or would it mess up my test kit results.

BTW the 6 Rosy Barbs are now only being fed 1 every 2 days.

Advice ?

Thanks,
Declan.

Yes your cycle is starting.

It's true that if you do a water change you'll be making your fish more comfortable but in doing this you'll be slowing down the cycle too.

Using the Amquel+ won't affect your test results as far as I know. The nasties will be made harmless but the test kit will still register that they're there, no harm in that though & in fact, would still give you the opportunity to keep an eye on how well the cycle is progressing.

How did you get on with testing the tap water for pH after leaving it stand overnight?

As you told me your nitrate out of the tap is 20ppm then that hasn't been contributed to by your cycle. You may need to keep an eye on that level in the future as you don't really want it to go up higher than 40ppm but in my book the lower the better, especially if you develop an algae problem. In this case, the only way you're gonna remove that initial reading is by a removal resin such as Nitrazorb. Useful stuff as when it gets exhausted you can recharge it in some salt water.

Regards

Richard.

Theer have been many posts on this subject. the Ph of your tap water will change after standing for 24 hours. if it is 7 from the tap it will be up to 8 24 hours later. see previous post

Theer have been many posts on this subject. the Ph of your tap water will change after standing for 24 hours. if it is 7 from the tap it will be up to 8 24 hours later. see previous post

Good point Russel , there been a lot of cycle post, and more importantly you are also right the PH of tap water will change when left in a cup :shock: , Holger is half right (and half wrong) doing the inert test with a cup one should do an control, so in other wards TWO cups one left with tap water without any gravel, and one left with gravel as per Holger post, then the "final difference" between the control and the test qualify in a law of courts before you do down to the lFS to complain.

Hi,

Not sure why the replies are focusing on the pH I did the pH comparison test back on May 27 - see post from Sun May 27 in this thread. Both water sample - with and without gravel - tested at 8 after 1 day standing.

I've now added the Amquel+ to the tank as the Nitrite levels have been steadily rising over the last few days (currently over 1ppm) and I reckoned it was better to try and make the fish more comfortable and risk the test results over the next few days being skewed by it.

Thanks,
Declan

If it is a newish set up then I would say the tank has not cycled.
Assuming it is a new set up then the tank needs time to PEAK, that is all your perams will rise until they reach a point where the bacteria
kicks in and starting to break down the waste ect. when your readings start dropping then you know the filters are mature .
How fast does it mature? It depends on the amoount of stock you have, the size of tank. the feeding regime. and a few more. to many water changes will slow down the process. the best is small regular water changes. rather than large weekly ones. as in many previous posts the best way to mature a filter, is get some one who has a mature tank to give you some water from there filter when they do a filter clean, I find that all these addatives you buy are only a mask that hides the true readings, and is a sales gimmick.

@Sean,
I only suggested that the gravel might contain hardness builders no more.

@Declan,
Don't worry too much about your fish. Once they breath normally and still feed they are fine. Most cyprinids are quite hardy. Yoiu might want to add an airstone to get more dissolved oxygen into the water. But if you see them coming up to the surface and hanging there trying to get some air it's time for a big water change. Don't think that will happens though since your tank is lightly stocked

In relation to your pH level and stocking. With a pH of 8 you are just near the upper limit of what freshwater tropical fish can stand...HOWEVER...so long as the pH does not fluctuate you can get any tropical freshwater fish into your tank. pH is not so important but if it changes rapidly your fish loss can be massive. You should really be looking at the water hardness to determine if your pH will change but I suspect that since another person here on the forum uses the same water your water is going to be fine. I have been able to keep all my fish (bar a weak one) alive and very healthy for the past 2 months and my pH is 7.9 - 8.

If you are to cycle a tank again may I suggest you do a fishless cycle instead of using live fish. Reason being is that the Ammonia and Nitrite and high levels of Nitrate are toxic...not a nice thing to be living in. Also fishless cycling builds up a bacterial colony in your filters alot quicker so you dont have to wait as long!

Best of luck with it...keep doing everything your doing...sometimes it may take up to a week or two for things to actually begin to change. If you were to get more bacterial medium off someone now then you may find that the cycle will speed up. The more bacteria you can add (from an established tank) the better!!