amonia spike, ph crash

hey everyone,

tested my water b4 a wc today and noticed the ph was at 6 (or lower)...normally its 6.8. did and amonia test and it showed 1ppm. nightmare!

ive been doing everything as normal except i cleaned my filters 3 days ago (in a bucket with tank water) and i started using ammo lock instead of stresscoat about a week ago. according to some other forums this can stop the bacteria eating the amonia produced by fish waste etc. and so give an amonia spike (weird seeing as its for the opposite also)

anyone had a similar experience?

as a remedy ive added some polyfilter and might do twice daily 10 per cent water changes to bring the ph back up slowly. any other suggestions?

nice one

thats weird! justed checked ammonia with my salifert test kit for marines (it does freswater aswell) and it came up zero! maybe the ammolock gives false readings but that dont explain the ph drop...unless it affects the ph test kits aswell :shock:

not 100% sure but i have read that ammolock dont get rid of ammonia but some how seals it so as not to let it into the water.im not that techno so i might have explained it wrong.

I beliefe Mr Algae is correct, this type of stuff renders the ammonia harmless rather than removes it so it's possible that it's still detectable. However, if you had zero ammonia and did a wc, it's odd that you're getting a reading so soon.

Did you check the date on your testkit - I believe these things can expire and give odd readings.

Ammo lock is well known to give false readings this is a very common problem with the product, another well known product "Kordons Amquel" has the same problem both products are ammonia binders. They will give false readings to test kits that use the Nessler method, nearly every hobby testkit on the Irish market uses this method, you would have to use a Salicylate based kit to get the correct readings for ammonia and these usually cost big bucks thats why we dont normally use them.

If the fish look fine i wouldnt panic just yet its probably the Ammo lock throwing off the testkit but i would double check the kit is in date anyway.

i tested the tap water and it was zero so i think the test still works. does an amonia spike cause a ph crash?

i tested the tap water and it was zero so i think the test still works. does an amonia spike cause a ph crash?

Don`t know for sure but if ti turned to nitrate and it was in high doses your ph could crash.

nitrate is only 5 ppm ...all the time

If I said I knew I would be lying. But I can`t see that it would.

I had an ammonia problem in a Discus tank once and it did not effect the ph.
Although ammonia takes the form of Ammonium in soft acidic water it is still dangerous though a little less toxic.

ok....i tested my shellie tank and the ph was 8 (good) but there was an ammonia reading..... so heres what i think:

a:
it must be the ammo lock which is giving the false readings as i used it for waterchanges on both tanks. but the ph crash has me stumped. my tap s ph is 7 so it should be pretty stable.(?) i have bogwood and plants (really taken off lately possivly lowering the ph?) which usually drop the ph to 6.8.

b: (unlikely) there was a power cut while i was out and some of the bacteria died.

to make it worse one of my discus wouldnt eat today

CRAP

ok....i tested my shellie tank and the ph was 8 (good) but there was an ammonia reading..... so heres what i think:

a:
it must be the ammo lock which is giving the false readings as i used it for waterchanges on both tanks. but the ph crash has me stumped. my tap s ph is 7 so it should be pretty stable.(?) i have bogwood and plants (really taken off lately possivly lowering the ph?) which usually drop the ph to 6.8.

b: (unlikely) there was a power cut while i was out and some of the bacteria died.

to make it worse one of my discus wouldnt eat today

CRAP

Which tank are you having the problems with.

Keep us osted on the Discus. Spironucleus is easy enough to cure if caught fairly early. Don`t treat him with anything yet.
Is he being bullied.
Can you tell us about his bevaviour. Is he shying away from the shoal.
Does he hide away in a corner and face the sides.
Has he any interest in eating.
Is it possible to place him in a hospial tank on his own for a while.
If you cn try this and see will he eat.

Usually adding some live food like fry helps. The instinct can trigger them to eat.
I am sure somebody here has guppy fry. Or a local petshop has fry in a tank.

Keep us posted.

thanks anthony... sorry for taking so long to get back to you.
so its def not an ammonia spike just the ammo lock fuckin with my shit!@
the ph crash was due to the kh of the water.... the tap water is only 2dkh.
so ive added a small amount of bread soda (flat teaspoon for 20 litrs) to raise the kh but not the ph. to raise the ph back up im doing frequent small wter changes. weird that it took a year and a half to crash!

re: the discus....still not eating and yes he's hiding away in a corner. hes not being bullied. hes in their with his mate (female) and lately shes outgrown him. he's the one bullying her!...about the only time he comes out of his cave is to peck her! hes gotten very skinny and gaunt looking. any suggestions anthony?

no hospital tank :cry: and i dont like the idea of live fish :cry:

no hospital tank :cry: and i dont like the idea of live fish :cry:

Sometimes after a bad case of Spironucleus Vortens the only thing that will make your Discus eat is live food. It better to leave off on the heavy food after an attack but sometimes it can`t be avoided.
How long is he not eating.
What does his pooh look like. Is it white and stringy/white and solid or is it brown.

hi anto,
what is Spironucleus Vortens? havent seen his poo but hes not eating so i doubt hell be shitting much. :oops:

Spironucleus Vortens(eating dieases) is a Flaglellete that live in the intestines in the upper Lumen in Discus. Most fish will cary this and keep it under control. Usually its caused by stress.
What happens is the Flagellete are allowed to multiply and burrow into the intestinal wall of the discus causing it discomfort when it eats.
The discus then stops eating. The Spironucleus eventually breaks through the intestinal wall into the bloodstream and in to all the other organs causing death.
White stringy pooh and not eating is usually a sure sign of Spiron.
Octozin is supposed to work in early stages buy I never had any look using this product.

Metronidazole (anti-biotic) is the best treatment for it.
It is best added to food but as your discus is not eating then that is not an option. In sever cases it can be forced fed through a srynge but this takes practice and technique and can cause more stress especially to adult Discus whom I found much harder to force feed.

Metronidazole. 500mg to every 10usg(40l) every 8 hours. 3x daily.
followed by 45% w/c before each treatment. I found this impossible to do so I did daily w/c of 5o% before each treatment.Do this for between 5-7 days but it can take up to 14 days.
After a few days try food soaked in Metronidazole.
This is hard for some people as they have to make up their own beefheart. Thawing Beefheart and adding metro is a no no.
Its easier to try some flake after a few days and see if he eats.
If he is eating keep the treatment going for at least 5 days.Don`t try him with Bloodworm as his Intestines will be inflamed and a softer food is needed.

After you fish is back eating and the treatment is finished then run a course of Interpet no.9 or Myaxzin as his intestines will be stripped and be more prone to an internal Bacterial infection.

You will have to go to a vets for the Metronidazole.
Make sure you give him the proper dosage as he might offer you a smaller dosage. 50mg per 40l 3x daily x 7 is the right dosage.
It is not expensive.

Keep us posted.

I could be wrong but with regard to the Ammolock I think it just makes the ammonia safe but does not remove it which is why you will still get an ammonia reading or seemingly false ones.

Surely you are having this problem in the first place because you have stopped treating/de-chlorinating the changed water with stresscoat and this is killing the good bacteria.

Or have I picked it up wrong ?

Processor.

i switched from stresscoat to ammo lock...which is also a dechlorinator...it was in fact just a false amonia reading. there was no nitrite spike at all and all my other fish are healthy. the ph crash was beacuse the kh was low and over time this can lead to a crash. if you have a low kh in your tap , less than 4 dkh, in my case 2,dkh, you can add a flat teaspoon of bread soda for every 200 litres. this will bring up the kh to about 4-5dkh but not raise the ph :wink:

OK. I didn't know it was also a dechlorinater.
Glad they are all well anyway.

Hi There, you have to rember that when the pH drop to around 6pH the bacteria that converts NH3 to NO2 dont work, hence your problem very well, luckly NH3(amonica) in not toxic to freshwater fish as it is to marine, although NO2(nitrite) is vert toxic to freshwater while less of a problem to marines this is due to how to the pH pump over the gill lamana crossing water in and out between their bload stream and the outside/water.
If you raise the PH to 7, the amouniam NH4 will turn into more toxic amonia NH3 and possible kill you fish, my advice to you is stop messing with your tank, if you have to wash out the filter only wash out 50% of it as washing100% even with tank water is going to knock of alot of bacteria, stop feeding for 3 days once the levels , normallise ad a natural buffer, or a dash of marine salt ( a teaspoon full is enough for a 3 foot tank as a quick fix also if you have excessive number of fish or over feeding the bacteria work harder, one of the bi product is acid from the filter!!!
If you are buying new fish and they are coming from a tank of 7.5pH you could kill them, as it is O.K to put as fish from 6pH into a tank of 7.5 (1.5ph increase) but not the other way around any sudden drop of more than 1.3pH in the negative direction will stop the pH pump in the gill lamena, hence they cannot taka in oxgyen no matter how excessive you oxyenate the water this is call the borr effect , the fish will not come to the surface to find air like a goldfish does in a small bowil put instead spiral and lie on the bottom breathing quickly followed by quick mortality.
regards
sean

Maybe you could throw a few articles together on fish illness and post them Sean?Im sure you have encountered them all!!Ill rephrase that,Im sure you have encountered fish with every ilness.

sean, it may have been a bit hard to follow but in fact i had no amonia reading....one test kit gave me a false reading because i had switched from stress coat to ammo lock ....fortunately the bacteria in my filter are fine :wink: i slowly brought up the kh enough to make the ph stable...and with the 10pc daily water changes with my tap water (ph 7) the ph slowly rose back to its usual 6.8 and has stayed there.