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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)

Hi,

John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.

I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.

With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.

I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.

If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.

I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.

I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.

Thank you
Darragh Sherwin

Fishless Cycle Using Ammonia & SafeStart

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26 Feb 2007 11:43 #1 by essjay (S Jackson)
Hi All,

Just thought I'd log my fishless cycle using Ammonia (Enzo Household Ammonia 9.5%) and Tetra Safestart.

The tank setup is as follows:

Rio 400 with bottom sponges removed (from internal filter) and replaced with Siporax and some Coral Gravel. Upper sponges remain.
Substrate: 95% Coral Sand
Eheim 2329 Wet/Dry Canister filter with Eheim media.
Plenty of rocks of unknown type.
Fresh water with Stresscost to remove clorine etc.

My strategy is as follows:

Addition of X amount of NH3 until Ammonia level of 5ppm is achieved. This X amount of drops has to be added daily until NO2 spike. Afterwards follow up with 0.5 X (from previous step) amount of NH3 daily until NO2 is 0ppm causing NO3 peak. ~50% water change should follow. (Blatently taken from Cichlid Forum)

The unknown here is what will happen when the SafeStart is added. I expect the ammonia to break down fairly quickly, perhaps in 24/48 hours.

If anyone has any wisdom to contribute to this thread, please do so.

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26 Feb 2007 11:47 #2 by essjay (S Jackson)
22/02/2007 13:30

Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: 0.00
Nitrate: 0.00
Ph: 8.0
GH: 4.00
Temperature: 27.49c

Initial readings before adding ammonia.

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26 Feb 2007 11:50 #3 by essjay (S Jackson)
22/02/2007 17:30

Ammonia: 6.00
Nitrite: 0.00
Nitrate: 0.00
Ph: 8.1
GH: 4.00
Temperature: 27.40c

5pm - started adding Ammonia. I had to add 200ml of the Ammonia to reach 6ppm. This to me sounds like an awful lot. Considering the substrate, internal filter, rocks & background I estomate that there might be 300L in the tank. So 200ml of 9.5% ammonia sounds way too much. But that's what it took.....

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26 Feb 2007 11:51 #4 by essjay (S Jackson)
6pm - added 300ml Tetra SafeStart

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26 Feb 2007 11:53 #5 by essjay (S Jackson)
23/02/2007 09:34

Ammonia: 4.00
Nitrite: 0.25
Nitrate: 0.00
Ph: 7.85
GH: 5.00
Temperature: 27.0c

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26 Feb 2007 11:54 #6 by essjay (S Jackson)
23/02/2007 18:50

Ammonia: 2.00
Nitrite: 0.50
Nitrate: 5.00
Ph: 7.65
GH: 5.00
Temperature: 27.0c

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26 Feb 2007 11:54 #7 by essjay (S Jackson)
7.15pm added a further 200ml of the ammonia solution

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26 Feb 2007 11:56 #8 by essjay (S Jackson)
23/02/2007 20:17

Ammonia: 8.00
Ph: 8.30
Temperature: 27.0c

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26 Feb 2007 11:57 #9 by essjay (S Jackson)
24/02/2007 12:16

Ammonia: 4.00
Nitrite: 2.00
Nitrate: 10.00
Ph: 7.8
GH: 5.00
Temperature: 27.0c

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26 Feb 2007 11:59 #10 by essjay (S Jackson)
24/02/2007 20:48

Ammonia: 4.00
Nitrite: 2.00
Nitrate: 5.00
Ph: 7.8
GH: 5.00
Temperature: 27.0c

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26 Feb 2007 12:00 #11 by essjay (S Jackson)
9.26pm added 200ml ammonia solution

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26 Feb 2007 12:01 #12 by essjay (S Jackson)
24/02/2007 22:23

Ammonia: 8.00+ (kit only goes up to 8)
Ph: 8.40
Temperature: 27.4c

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26 Feb 2007 12:02 #13 by essjay (S Jackson)
At this stage I'm starting to question the readings so I bought a "second opinion kit"

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26 Feb 2007 12:05 #14 by essjay (S Jackson)
Kit 1

25/02/2007 11:01

Ammonia: 6.00
Nitrite: 3.5
Nitrate: 15.00
Ph: 7.9
GH: 5.00
Temperature: 27.1c

Kit 2

25/02/2007 13:37

Ammonia: 5.00+ (this kit only goes up to 5)
Nitrite: 3.3 - 33 (highest test colour on the kit)
Nitrate: 50.00
Ph: 7.9
GH: 5.00
Temperature: 27.2c

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26 Feb 2007 12:07 #15 by essjay (S Jackson)
Kit 1

25/02/2007 21:39

Ammonia: 4.00
Nitrite: 3.5
Nitrate: 20.00
Ph: 7.7
GH: 5.00
Temperature: 27.6c

Kit 2

25/02/2007 21:52

Ammonia: 5.00
Nitrite: 3.3 - 33 (highest test colour on the kit)
Nitrate: 50.00
Ph: 7.7
GH: 5.00
Temperature: 27.6c

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26 Feb 2007 12:08 #16 by essjay (S Jackson)
10:00pm added 50% of normal dosage - 100ml

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26 Feb 2007 14:17 #17 by essjay (S Jackson)
Kit 1

26/02/2007 19:38

Ammonia: 3.00
Nitrite: 2.0
Nitrate: 5.00
Ph: 7.9
GH: 7.00
Temperature: 26.7c

Kit 2

26/02/2007 20:01

Ammonia: 3.00
Nitrite: 3.3 - 33 (highest test colour on the kit)
Nitrate: 100.00
Ph: 7.9
GH: 7.00
Temperature: 26.8c

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26 Feb 2007 14:18 #18 by essjay (S Jackson)
8:15pm added 50% of initial dosage - 100ml

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26 Feb 2007 14:22 #19 by Anthony (Anthony)
Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re: Fishless Cycle Using Ammonia & SafeStart
Do you really have to make so many boring posts just to get your posts numbers up.
One or two posts with a means and an end instead of one every few minutes would have been sufficient.

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26 Feb 2007 14:24 #20 by essjay (S Jackson)
to be honest I don't give a shit about building up post numbers. Just thought people might be remotely interested in keeping an eye on how the Tetra SafeStart works. There seemed to be a bit of interest in another topic about the product with some people not sure about it......

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26 Feb 2007 18:43 #21 by Daragh_Owens (Daragh Owens)
Anthony, that's a bit rough, hardly encouraging to others to post test results. :oops:

Most interesting here was the difference in test kits. I don't think I would add amonia to cycle a tank, but I still think the results are interesting.


Daragh

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26 Feb 2007 19:02 #22 by Anthony (Anthony)
Replied by Anthony (Anthony) on topic Re: Fishless Cycle Using Ammonia & SafeStart
I agree with you.
Maybe I was a little harsh. Sorry essjay.

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26 Feb 2007 19:11 #23 by Valerie (Valerie)
Replied by Valerie (Valerie) on topic Re: Fishless Cycle Using Ammonia & SafeStart
Compiling the previous data into 1 graph ...



Assumptions :
1./ If info not available at one point, assumed the same as previous reading
2./ The 2 kits don't seem to use the same unit, adjusted accordingly (pro rata on the basis that 60ppm = 3.36gH - Read in another post, I might be wrong)

Might be useful seeing trends ...

Regards,
Valerie

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27 Feb 2007 03:08 #24 by essjay (S Jackson)
no worries lads....

Yes some of the readings are a little strange. The two kits more or less agree on the Ammonia level and Nitrite to a lesser extent. Nitrate readings are completely different unless I'm going a bit colour blind. Thinking of getting a "third opinion kit" now.

I'm still concerned about the amount of Ammonia I'm adding to the tank. Even at 100ml, that should be 9.5ml of pure Ammonia if I'm reading the bottle correctly.

Anyways plod along. Will have another set of readings this evening. I'm expecting the Ammonia to be down to about 2ppm as the 100ml last night should have pushed it back up to 6ppm and there's about 4ppm being broken down every 24 hours or so. Roll on the 0ppm Nitrite readings...

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27 Feb 2007 06:23 #25 by Sean (Fr. Jack)
Nice graphs walfry a lot of time invested.
Unforunately bacteria are use of a small but continuous supply of ammonia, so even when the nitrite peaks and the ammonia drops they still need to be fed, I have ask this question a 100 times with not one reply what wrong with taking some filter wool out of the filter of the tank where the first fish were fish out? Does it have to be so hi tech?

Hi Tech approach:
1. roll up sleeve.
2 Grab wool and place in fish bag with a tiny bit of aquarium water.
3. The really techincal bit...wait for it open hand grab wool close hand lift and but it into you filter assuming there is no chlorine and then Temp is OK

woo

P.S Please PM if you need an break down of this procedure.

That would be a ecumenical matter!!!

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27 Feb 2007 06:35 #26 by ChrisM (ChrisM)
Replied by ChrisM (ChrisM) on topic Re: Fishless Cycle Using Ammonia & SafeStart
Essjay,sorry to get all academic on you but you cant graph different sclaes (pH,Gh,Temp,N02,N03) on to one scale and try to make sense of it.You should make a scale (xy) axis for each of the above readings individually and you will be able to make alot more sense of the readings.


What is the common scaling factor in regard to each reading, ppm/mg/l/ etc etc.If you have all of the readings converted to one common scaling factor such as ppm then you can graph them all together,otherwise you cant make sense of the readings.


On the other hand you have raised the bar for this site,I havent ever seen such a professional approach to providing such a detailed account of a tank setup.I pat you on the back for attempting something not straight out of a book.I believe this will be the norm in years to come as soon as it is clinically tested and verified.If you would like some help in plotting data I would be glad to help out(my job involves graphing data all day!!!).

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27 Feb 2007 06:43 #27 by essjay (S Jackson)
I didn't do the graphs above, but I will do some when I have a chance either in excel or webbased using Fusion Charts (www.infosoftglobal.com/FusionCharts/). As far as I know, the Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate is all in ppm or mg/L (are they both the same?).

In response to the post above re: filter wool. I could have done that yes, and got some from the fish shop. That said I also wanted to experiment and see if the SafeStart does what it's supposed too.

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27 Feb 2007 07:22 #28 by ChrisM (ChrisM)
Replied by ChrisM (ChrisM) on topic Re: Fishless Cycle Using Ammonia & SafeStart
If all your readings are in ppm/mg/l graph them together and put a legend in and it will be a quality graph.Can temperature be measured in ppm?

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27 Feb 2007 08:26 #29 by Sean (Fr. Jack)
For every rise in temp by 8C the bacteria metabolic rate roughly doubles, light level inhibit the bacteria More light slower growth) for the experiment to have any real meaning a control needs to be done i.e same size tank same temp same amount of ammonia added but with NO SAFESTART, a scientist would have more than 6 control and more than six identical experiment of the exact same kind, but that not practical to do at home, if you dont have a control is the bacteria coming form the safestart or your hand that was use to hold the safestart?

Once you have the results if the percentage difference between the control and the experiment is significant (20%+dif )then you can prove the result, if there is not much difference (5%)but you were running exact replicate experiment of 6 or more then that significant to.
To run one experiment without a control is mealiness, to post it is significant as you are way ahead of most posters so it has merit from an effort and technical interest point of view, which is good and raises the standard of the forum, as the tester had more than 100 post (Oscar) I doubt he was trying to post for the sake of it but just giving a interval feel to the experiment. When you go to the pub you buy one pint at a time and dont bulk buy 6 in one go to. Hence you post your self :lol:

That would be a ecumenical matter!!!

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27 Feb 2007 08:37 #30 by ChrisM (ChrisM)
Replied by ChrisM (ChrisM) on topic Re: Fishless Cycle Using Ammonia & SafeStart
I think you are saying a test has to be Repeatable and Reliable Sean, in oreder for the results to have any credability or merit in the Scientific realm of things.I agree with you on that one.

Does this mean we have to back up anything we say on this forum with graphs now!!!Damn you Essjay,you have raised the bar.

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