Help! White Spot + related concerns

Hi.

I purchased 6 "Threadfin Rainbowfish - Iriatherina werneri" in one of my LFSs only to realise after I'd released them to my tank that 1 of them had several white spots. I'm raging cause I thought I had carefully checked the tank in the store for health problems!

Anyway, now 3 of them have the spots, I have several galaxy raspora and these seems fine so far. I also have 3 ottos and 5 shrimp (Charry & Ammano mix). My tank is also heavily planted.

I've read lots of online info about treating white spot and have started raising the temp from 25 Celcius to 30, I'm at 28 today however I have a few concerns and would be really greatfull for any advice:

1) Considering my shrimp, ottos and live plants should I avoid using Salt? If salt would be good should I use table salt, sea salt, tonic salts or aquarium salts?

2) Considering the above would Protozin be a good treatment? Should I use it with salt or instead?

3) Are there any alternatives or more suitable courses of action?

Thanks very much, please see tank photo...

i would take the bad fish out asap for a start. I have found raising the temp to over 30 to be very effective way of killing it but you must have the temp over 30 for as least a week; i would recommend 10 days. You should defo add an air stone as oxygen levels dramatically reduce at higher temps.
There is a big risk in raising the temp so high and you will almost certainly lose fish. Every time I have done it I have lost some fish. Some fish just wont cope with the temp increase.
I really believe shops need to get the stock in order with white spot. It is a nightmare for fishkeepers and the only real way to prevent it is a quarantine tank

Thanks Damian.

I'm going to lower the water levels so my filter in flow pipe will aggitate the water as I don't have a pump at the moment but I'll get one. I may stop the temp rises at 28 Celcius so, or would this defeat the purpose?

I can do 25% water changes every 2 days, or would 3 be better to maintain temps?

Quarantine isn't an option as I've no second tank unfortunatly. I had considered removing and putting down the initially sick fish but suspected that even if this was done I would still have an outbreak and then I'd regret killing the little guy when he may have stood a chance.

I'm hoping to save the fish, shrimp and plants if I can. Some online research has suggested that Formalin, Maracide or Protozin are best. formailin seems to come out best for plants.

Does anyone know if Formailin is easily available in Ireland?

Thanks again, any other suggestion would be much appreciated.

Daniel.

My thoughts for what its worth

at this point i personaly wou;d not remove the fish as the fungal infection is already there
as previously mention take care when rising the temp and make sure you add the air stone as previously mentioned

when it comes to treatment there are several options available
sometimes raising the water might be enough other times a treatment might be needed

if adding treatments do a quick bit of research to which one you feel or has been recomended as the best treatment for your tank and dont keep swapping from one to another as this will have very little posotive impact
sorry if i sound patronising

Hope all goes well

Not at all David, thanks for the advice. I'm no expert and I really need as much as I can get on this one.

Cheers!

there is no point in just raising it to 28. It has to be at least 30 to kill it. If the fish it a cheapy neon I would have took him out as soon as i noticed it. I am not a plant expert but I believe formailan is a good option

I don't have bottle of protozin handy, but many waterlife products contain formalin anyway....but my memory tells me Protozin is a formalin/malachite green mix.

ian

Differant people will have differant views on this.

Twice have i managed to get white spot in the past also NPT tank and as i have also found it is possible to over complicate this matter.

Basicly White spot is a fungal infection and it takes time to mature increasing the water temp speeds this up when they mature they fall of the fish and it is at this point it needs to be killed of.
if the water temp is not increased it provides ideal option for growth and hence the reason it spreads and quickly across the fish

i have found that increasing the water temp and using Interpet Anti White Spot to be very successful
just follow the instructions.whith no detrimental impact to the plants

It is possible that the stress of the move from pet shop to tank started the white spot it is said that threadfin rainbow are not the hardyest of fish but a great addition none the less

I have a spare airstone and pump i am based in clare if any use

The disease is in the tank now,so no point in removing the fish.
Id be careful increasing the temp,do it over time,not straight up to 30c.
Id use a specific med for White spot. I personally find API White Spot Cure good. Esp if you use exactly as it says on the instructions! I also have shrimp in the tank,and all were fine when used with it. Catfish and corydoras can be prone to these meds,scaleless fish all are,however similarly Ive treated full dose and not had any problems either. Its vital you get increased levels of oxygen into the tank,as the higher temps will drain the O2 content. You need to speed up the life cycle of the disease and the increased temp will do this. Id add an airstone if I was you,or if you dont have one,perhaps someone could lend you one. Given you have caught it in its early stages,one lot of treatment should do the trick. Also make sure you have no carbon in your tank filter when treating with meds.
Ive thankfully never lost a fish to white spot,and Ive often had to re treat twice,but thankfully no losses from it.


Gavin

you could also consider punktol ultra forte. We use it in the shop gfor the quarantine tanks.It's the best stuff I've ever come across. there are new strains of white spot developing in the trade over the last few years..we call it "super whte spot" as it is virtually impossible to cure with copper baseed medication. It started in the checz republic and the far east,rather than dosing fish when they were sick the farmers were using copper as a preventive measure keeping it running in their systems as a matter of routine, under these conditions many of the new more virulent strains have developed.As far as I'm aware there has been no real research done on this yet(I'm open to anyone with links to it though) Basically shops are dealing with a whole set of problems they weren't ten years ago. All thanks to man!

Thanks again for the advice Damian, Ian & John!

David, that’s a really nice offer and useful advice, unfortunately I’m in Dublin but I’ll pick up an air pump and stone today

Thanks Gavin, I’m not using a carbon filter so I should be fine there


Just to recap before I start treatment:

I have a 70 litre tank, with an external filter (Eheim ecco pro 300) without a carbon filter. This cycles the water 10 times an hour.

The tank contains:

• 9 Galaxy Raporas,
• 6 Threadfin Rainbowfish,
• 3 Ottos
• 5 Shrimp

I have lots of live plants.

I am slowly raising the temp from 25 to 30 Celsius.

I am going to add an airstone with pump.

I am going to treat with either Protozin, Formalin, Interpet Anti White Spot or API white spot cure, depending on what’s available. (Remember I have lots of plants)

One last question, is any particular medicine listed above most suited to a planted aquarium? Or are any of the above really bad for plants?

Thanks again!!

copper into shrimp wont go!
I'd get em out before dosing.

Thanks Gavin,


I've bought "Interpet: Anti White Spot" which contains "Formaldehyde and Malachite Green Oxalate". There is no mention of copper, does anyone know if this treatment is safe for the shrimp? I'll have some job removing them, I've only seen 2 since I put them in.

Also, as I'm going to use medication, is there really any point in raising the temp to 30 C?

I'm thinking of applying a dose for 50 litres of water even though the tank is 70 lites to be safe...


Thanks all!

dantheman wrote:
[quote

Also, as I'm going to use medication, is there really any point in raising the temp to 30 C?




Thanks all![/quote]

Yes, as it speeds up the life cycle of the potozin and once they are free swimming the meds can attack them. You should be fine now that you have an airline going in.

Jay

What also might be helpful is a filter sponge with a 1 micron size, stopping anythng larger than that, this can help strip out free swimming type. They are 3 microns I think, have read somewhere when I had the issue.

10 days at 30 degrees may kill some fish. I used a 4 day hike to 30 degrees, it doen't kill it it stops it reproducing, well in my case, and 10 days after on 28 to speed up any that are left, this with cleaning, handy in a 70l, and fresh water serverely reduces the amount of free swimming parasites and the risk of em latching on. Inproved flow helps too.

Which ever route you take keep an eye on em to make sure they dont get deprived of oxygen, happens to even experienced keepers, and follow the med instructions to the letter and ask the lads if unsure.

I would be concerned using meds and going over 28 degrees. Even with aeration as water absorbs less oxygen when the meds are in it. Warmer water also absorbs less oxygen as far as I know.


Good luck.



mark

Thanks again for all the advice everyone. Thanks Mark, Thanks Jay.

After a lot of reading up on the net I have decided the best treatment in equal consideration for my plants, fish and shrimp, is to use Interpet Anti White Spot No. 6. I had considered raising the heat to 30 C or adding salt to the aquarium but I kept finding reason to doubt these approaches. I’m still a little unsure if this product actually contains copper or if indeed it is bad for shrimp but as best as I can gather it does not and is supposed to be harmless to plants, all fish except Mormyrids and filters. (Let’s hope!)

The following links were very usefull on this subject:

forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60624
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071007101126AAMrReE
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Ich.html
www.aqua-magica.com/white-spot-disease.html
freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/ich.htm

I have treated the tank with 6ml (to treat approx 60 litres) of Interpet Anti White Spot No. 6 mixed with 15 litres of warm water and added to the tank as part of a water change. I will repeat in 4 days.

I have put an air pump into the tank with a 6 inch diffuser so I have lots of bubbles to keep the o2 levels up.

I have also increased the water temp to 28 C and will hold it here for the duration of the treatment which seems to be 8 to 15 days depending on the water temp. I am going to reduce by 1 C per day after 8 days until I reach 25 C again.

I have removed several rocks to prevent them staining.

My tank is now a lovely pale blue! I will keep you posted on my progress.

One last thing I’m still unsure about is water changes during treatment, for the moment I will do a water change in 4 days before adding in the second dose unless anyone can recommend otherwise?

Thanks again!

I'm having problems with internet connection.

Malachite green is not copper-based (unless it has been derivatised eg by making it a copper salt), but that is not to say that a medication doesn't contain copper sulphate.
Malachite, however, is copper...but that isn't used (as far as I know in medication (but who knows as some manufacturers keep coy about some things).

Looking at the life cycle of white spot helps plan the treatment regimen....(else there seems little logic in why things are done).

The parasite buries itself deep within the skin of the fish……when on the fish, any medication that would kill the parasite would also kill the fish.

The medication kills the free-swimming stage; the increased temperature increases the time from cyst to free-swimming phase.

If the temperature is lower than recommended, then the length of medication may need increasing….so it is important to follow the medication recommendations. Malachite green is toxic.

Also, one other stage of the life cycle requires the parasite to settle undisturbed in the tank….eg a stagnant corner. Hence, make sure that there is good water circulation in the tank….and an airstone will assist in that. You’re more likely to get white spot in a large stagnant tank than you are in one that vibrant with lots of water movement.

I'll see if I can find anything about Interpet to see if it has any copper....I don't use it, so I can't test it for copper.

On the water changes, I would have done a change before treatment and then did non until after treatment (unless the medication says otherwise)

After treatment, and when you go back to normal temperatures you're still under quarantine for another 6 weeks. So watch carefully, and don't introduce any new fish in that time.

Ian

JohnH wrote:

Malachite green is not copper-based (unless it has been derivatised eg by making it a copper salt), but that is not to say that a medication doesn't contain copper sulphate.

You live and learn...I was always led to believe it (MG) was derived from the oxide which creates the green colour on copper (verdigris?).

Which is excellent evidence that we are all still learning!
Thanks Ian for sorting that out.

John

It is the name 'Malachite' that is the confusing element.

Malachite is a copper based green mineral. It is carbonate based. That is probably where any confusion with MG comes in.
The weathering of copper is likely to produce a copper carbonate or other copper salt (depending on what has weathered or oxidised the copper). Those copper salts are a vivd green.

Malachite Green is a fairly medium sized organic compound. Now, it may be derivatised to make a salt (and that may be a copper salt); but MG itself is not copper based as a rule.

In some respects, common names are a problem in general everywhere (fish, chemials, tarantulas, flowers).
So, this is why IUPAC (proper chemical names) would call malachite green.....4-[(4-dimethylaminophenyl)-phenyl-methyl]-N,N-dimethyl-aniline (and I did go to IUPAC to get that name as I am not so un-occupied in ife as to remember all of them ).
But try talking using that name and getting the square and round brackets in the right place whilst chatting down the pub.

Even 'verdigris' is a common name for a number of compounds.

As for learning, the day we think stop learning is the day we stop thinking.
And the more we learn, the more we realise that we need to learn more.
I'm happy to know that as my knowledge increases, the percentage I know about this world decreases.

ian

Thanks John.

Thanks Ian. I'm using an Eheim ecco pro 300 on a 70 litre aquarium so the water passes through the filter over 10 times an hour at peak performance. I'm pretty certain there are no dead spots as I have tested the temp throughout the tank using a very expensive and accurate food thermometer. 28 C seems to be the magic number for speeding up the life cycle of the ich / parasite.

The health of the fish are my priority. I have 8 Popendetta furcattas on order and I'm expecting them in tomorrow. I was pondering adding them in anyway as they can also be treated with this dose to save the risk of further infection. This would be the last of my additions hopefully for years.

Does this sound like a cruel idea? I would slowly acclimatise them over 4 hours using a 10 ml pippette.

For future reference and to close this off...

I used Interpet Anti White Spot No. 6. as per instuctions; 2 doses, 4 days apart. I made 20% water changes before each new dose and after the 8 days were up. I also raised the tank temp to 28C from 25C with limited stress to the fish though their behaviour did change somewhat. I added an airstone pumped on a timer at night to deal with the reduced o2 levels from heat, meds & plants.

I'm glad to say all went well. All the whitespot is gone and I lost no fish or ammano / cherry shrimp. All my plants are also looking unaffected. I had continued to add daily and weekly fertilisers as normal along with easycarbo.

I did remove my rocks from the tank to prevent them getting stained but my JBL manado substrate was fine so I think my rocks would have been to. Better safe than sorry!

Thanks for all the advice!

Good to hear things went well for you bro. Good stuff .

Jay

Well done matey.


Something to be said for following a process through. All but the most nasty strains of Ich should be fairly easy to rid with a little patience and work, without losing fish.

Now the mission is to keep it out of the tank:)


Mark

I've just been reading all the advise on White Spot as, on leaving the house this morning,Im sure I saw White Spot on some of my fish. What temperature do ye take as true...the temperature reading from the thermometer or from the values on the heater.
Introducing new fish seems to be the big problem. How long after introducing new fish to a tank would they start showing White Spot.

hey i also have white spot on my betta. it has its own tank so i just raised the temp up to 30 and im treating with a bule like die its called king british original formula ws3 ive been treating it for about 4-5 days and the spots are starting to clear up. id recommend using it just my 2 cents tho. good luck with it anyways chief....

louis wrote:

What temperature do ye take as true...the temperature reading from the thermometer or from the values on the heater.

i would go with the reading of a decent thermometer. them sticky strips can be a bit hit and miss.

Be careful raising temps as different livestock come from differing climates, if you raise the temps on stock from cooler waters you will end up cooking them and this includes Shrimp etc.

The other thing to note is that Copper is a no no in Invertebrate stocked setups , it WILL kill them and given that it is green/blue in colour, unless your Tanks have Black Silicone, will remain stained Blue...

F O R E V E R !!

Something that will not help if you intend selling later on.


Kev.