pH corrective action

Hey guys,

My pH is ridiculous in the house. It varies between 8 and 8.5 and that's after its been softened by the water softener on the house. I live in meath and the water is brutal here...

I read recently that putting peat moss in a stocking in your filter helps soften it. I also read that if you have a pressurised Co2 system that that will bring the pH down a whole point. (i.e. 8.5 to 7.5)

Both posts were on American forums afair...does anyone know if they are right?

I want to set up my new 125l as a nice planted tank so assuming it didn't cost an absolute bomb and if it dropped the pH in a stable way...

both methods you mention will bring ph down gradually but ph will also normally drop anyway without any additives. 8 upwards is high and there is obviously high carbonate hardness (kh) in your water source and that is buffering the ph upwards. if you check the gh and kh of your tap or well water it will give you a better guide to the cause of the high ph and then you will have a clearer view as to how to tackle it.
what we all try to achieve is stable ph values and the only way to achieve this is by knowing and controlling the buffers (kh)

neil0r wrote:

Hey guys,

My pH is ridiculous in the house. It varies between 8 and 8.5 and that's after its been softened by the water softener on the house. ...

Do you plan to use the water from the water softener unit??? if so will this not create problems as the water will be loaded with salt???

I live in Meath myself and have the same issue with water being as hard as nails but on my freshwater tank i still use direct water mains even though i have a softener system myself.

You should keep cichids as the water is perfect for them:P

with water like that you should think rift lake fish it would be super for them, as so softening mine comes out at 7.5 and my discus tank is 6.2 all i do is use cappatcha leaves, alder cones, and filter over jbl peat pellets, i have mandango substrate a few plants and lots of bogwood.. works for me, as per water softner i personally wouldnt use it as the salts may affect the fish, you could use ro and re mineralise it to what every ph you want... plenty of ways to do it

gerryberry wrote:

neil0r wrote:

Hey guys,

My pH is ridiculous in the house. It varies between 8 and 8.5 and that's after its been softened by the water softener on the house. ...

Do you plan to use the water from the water softener unit??? if so will this not create problems as the water will be loaded with salt???

I live in Meath myself and have the same issue with water being as hard as nails but on my freshwater tank i still use direct water mains even though i have a softener system myself.

You should keep cichids as the water is perfect for them:P

What type of water softener?
Gerryberry is right, with some types (depends on exactly the type of softener) will plonk sodium chloride into the output water.

But I wouldn't say that high pH is perfect for cichlids.....Discus? Rams? are not cichlids to say high pH is perfect.

Although some components that make up hard water MAY raise pH....it is not as simple as that. pH and Hardness are different things.
You can very soft water with a very high pH; and you can have very hard water with a very low pH.

So softening does not automatically bring pH down (and some methods of softening actually increase pH quite dramtically).

Water softening also leaves you with a potential of little buffering, and hence the pH may swing up and down quite freely.

High pH does not necessarily mean a high amount of carbonate buffering on the water.

ian

Thanks for all the comments lads...

I'll be honest I haven't got a scooby doo how the chemistry of pH works.

All I know for sure at the moment is that my water on a high range API pH test comes in at between 8 and 8.2 depending. I've always used post softened water but I guess I should take a sample of outside tap (i.e. un-softened) water and test it.

By the sounds of things I need to get a more detailed pH test kit that will tell me kh and gh. Also some research into how that all works would probably be a good idea.

I've put bogwood into a previous tank without any discernible change but again I was only testing High Range pH.

The water softener is allegedly one of the best ones you can get. It uses salt pellets/cubes to de (or possibly re) ionise a doofer in the unit which all the water is passed through. apparently the water passing through this doofer sheds the limescale. Then each night it washes back the part where all the lime has gathered.

Someone else told me cichliads liked hard water before so I was toying with the idea of going down that road...All that is in the tank atm are a some cardinals and glowlights and a dwarf gourami that I got from aquatic village. Not sure how good a 125l tank would be for a cichliad set up though...

Really not sure what to do with the tank fish wise now...

If you're interested in the chemistry side, then just ask.
We can take it to the 'Chem Mystery' level or keep it simple (but it is often the keeping it simple that leads to more confusion).

You'd need to be able to measure a range range of pHs.

I'm not too sure what brand of water softener you have, but it may one that is suitable for washing machines but not for fishkeeping. There are different ways to 'soften' water.

Cichlids..... the cichlid family is quite large to give listen to generalisation of what water they like.
Some cichlids do need highish pH (eg Lake Malawi and Tanganyikan cichlids), but they are not all cichlids.
Discus, Rams and freshwater Angel fish are also cichlids.

Usually, when I hear of very high pHs, the first thing is to ask a few questions before doing anything drastic:
the first question is "is the water test correct and done correctly?".
An old test kit, an uncalibrated pH meter etc etc are no use.

Very often messing around with water chemistry can lead to some pretty devastating results.

ian

neil, as i do and always have lived in a soft water low ph area my difficulty was the oppisite of yours and i had to raise these values. this i achieve easily by adding bread soda and a little marine salt.
although i tried to research water chemistry i found it interesting but confusing and not necessary other than the rudiments. but it has always been my understanding that ph levels are mostly affected by adding or removing buffers as in the kh or carbonates and that general hardness is less important in this.
anyway i would agree with the other posters that you would be best keeping fish that were suited to your local water rather than trying to change the values as it is more important for the fish to have somewhat stable ph. etc.

igmillichip wrote:

If you're interested in the chemistry side, then just ask.
We can take it to the 'Chem Mystery' level or keep it simple (but it is often the keeping it simple that leads to more confusion).

well its specifically in relation to pH that I'm interested. If you can give me any info or point me in the right direction then I'd appreciate it.

You'd need to be able to measure a range range of pHs.

Is there a test kit that you can recommend for that? My kit only has pH and high range pH. Its a API jobbie I got around 18 months ago. My pH hasn't actually fluctuated that much.

I'm not too sure what brand of water softener you have, but it may one that is suitable for washing machines but not for fishkeeping. There are different ways to 'soften' water.

Don't know if this helps but I think the softener is similar (if not the same) as the 3rd one on this page:
(Single Cylinder Time Clock Controlled Softener)
www.softwater.ie/compare-systems.html
Except our one isn't just timed, it meters the water and then flushes back.

Usually, when I hear of very high pHs, the first thing is to ask a few questions before doing anything drastic:
the first question is "is the water test correct and done correctly?".
An old test kit, an uncalibrated pH meter etc etc are no use.

Na, I'm doing the test right. I'm keeping fish the guts of 2 years and I test at least once a month, often twice a month and continuously if I see any changes or if anything happens (i.e. power cut/change in fish behavior)

Very often messing around with water chemistry can lead to some pretty devastating results.

That was one of the first things I learned on here actually Hence me starting the thread...IF I attempt the change the water pH then I need to make sure whatever I do is sustainable and not prone to fluctuations. I guess I was really hoping that there was a way I could avoid having to buy RO water from the LFS.

igmillichip wrote:

Cichlids..... the cichlid family is quite large to give listen to generalisation of what water they like.
Some cichlids do need highish pH (eg Lake Malawi and Tanganyikan cichlids), but they are not all cichlids.
Discus, Rams and freshwater Angel fish are also cichlids.

So if I were to surrender to the fact that my water is what it is and go down the route of keeping cichlids, can you give me some names of ones that *are* suitable for a pH of 8.2?

I'll be getting back to you on these questions.....I've been a bit overrun with stuff to do recently.

But in reply to your last question, African Rift Valley cichlids would be the ones for higher pH water. But really the most important part is not just the pH but how well it is buffered....so starting with a highish pH and using coral gravel to keep the buffering up will be a forwarding thinking way.

There are other cichlids that would prefer the higher pH levels though.

ian

look at tanganyikans and malawi's for your water

igmillichip wrote:

I'll be getting back to you on these questions.....I've been a bit overrun with stuff to do recently.

But in reply to your last question, African Rift Valley cichlids would be the ones for higher pH water. But really the most important part is not just the pH but how well it is buffered....so starting with a highish pH and using coral gravel to keep the buffering up will be a forwarding thinking way.

There are other cichlids that would prefer the higher pH levels though.

ian

No worries Ian thanks. One time a while back I added RO water to my 60l tank thinking it would bring the pH down because I did a 30% water change for 2 or 3 days in a row. The water pH dropped to around 7.6/7.8 but then a week later was back up at the 8 mark.

Going to read up about the types of Cichlids you guys have suggested and see if I can pick out a few types that would work well together. Dont have a scooby doo about this type of fish though so methinks I've a bit of a study ahead of me...from what I have read it would seem there are lots of ways to get it wrong with cichlids!

ian do you know of any good articles on pH, kh and buffering etc? but ones that are easy to read as i cant handle jargon.
my water is 7 out the tap but 8 in a tank with bog wood and haven't a breeze why. i guess its fairly hard water, but is there anything you can suggest, like neil's asking, to reasonably sustain a lower pH (i'd be looking at 7.5 ideally) preferably in a natural way? i have jbl peat pellets and can get black cones etc but if the water is hard will this actually do any good?

joey wrote:

ian do you know of any good articles on pH, kh and buffering etc? but ones that are easy to read as i cant handle jargon.
my water is 7 out the tap but 8 in a tank with bog wood and haven't a breeze why. i guess its fairly hard water, but is there anything you can suggest, like neil's asking, to reasonably sustain a lower pH (i'd be looking at 7.5 ideally) preferably in a natural way? i have jbl peat pellets and can get black cones etc but if the water is hard will this actually do any good?

I do indeed know many good articles. But I don't know of any good ones on the internet that are much use to be quite honest. Many that hit the nail on the head are simply too theoretical and do not relate that to practical aspects; and most others are, for me, not great.

I was asked to write a book on water chemistry in the 80s, got so far through it and decided to have some kids instead so it never got finished, otherwise I'd upload that (if I can find the bits)

At the moment I'm putting together some slides for a talk on water quality for the future. Hence, little time at present (plus I'm organising an event in March...so all too busy to give a too brief an answer that may be mis-read).

pH is not the be all and end all of water. It is important, but some things are more important so long as overly excessive pHs are not being read.

To give a definitive answer with amounts of this that or the other to add depends upon what exactly is contributing to the pH.
If pH is measured in pure water with a single strong acid added then we can go quite far to suggesting how much of this or that to add to bring the pH down.
But real water is not as simple as that.

If water is being buffered at a pH then it can be difficult to move it away from pH region in which it is being buffered IF the buffering capacity is strong. (I did some curves on an Ammonia Calculation thread here...looks quite complex, but isn't really....it shows how stubborn things can be at certain limited conditions).
In the Rift Valley lakes, the buffering capacity is very good in those lakes. The fish need that stability.
Moreover, that buffering capacity of those lakes also confers a very important redox system (which in my opinion is one of the key items in water quality).

Lowering pH may be as simple as diluting the water with RO water....but even a 50% water change may only move the pH by a few points of a degree depending upon the buffering of the original water.
If I had a solution of Hydrochloric acid and it was pH 6, then diluting it 50% would probably only give a pH of 6.3 (approx and assuming a few things). If the water were of a different component then the dilution might do nothing very noticeable.

ian

probably best to leave it then and just have it stable rather than tinker with it and lose any buffering, havin pH shoot up or down and killing otherwise comfortable fish i suppose?

tell me this: would a heavy bioload/organic decompisition combined with a high amount of trapped co2 (not injected, just low surface movement to keep co2 in for plants to feed on) have any affect, IN THEORY given that the water is of medium hardness, on the pH value? at the moment with no waste decomposition in the tank the pH is higher than i hoped but once its fully stocked is there a chance this could reduce pH slightly, naturally and safely?

You could tinker with the water by using things like phosphoric acid or other mineral additions.
But, you need to take care.

That is why I often prefer to do a bit of text and then wait for another query leading from that.

Explaining all of this is much better done with a graph or by pictures.

I think that using a peat filtration if you need more acidic water is a very good method if water is a tad hard.
It will add some important organic acids to water for fish that like the peaty 'blackwater'. There are quite a few benefits of using it if done correctly and not in tank water with no buffering.

Remember that although we see some natural waters with very low pH and almost no hardness, they are also being fed by freshwater containing other minerals for correct redox action.
In an isolated fish tank, those components needed for correct redox reactions will soon be depleted....
they don't necessarily disappear, they are simply converted with time to a more useless form.

The analogy there is that we need Iron in our diet; plants needs iron...but it can't be any old form of iron. It is an important redox reagent...and needs to be in a certain state to be of any use. We need, for one purpose, Vitamin C in order to convert or maintain iron in a form that is of use to us. (the correct term here is 'oxidised' or 'reduced' form of iron....'RedOx')

pH is affected by and has an effect on many things.
eg ammonia affects and contributes to changes in pH, and pH affects the toxicity of ammonia.
pH is temperature dependent....so when doing tests they have to done at the temperature of the water (and the same goes for ammonia tests as well to be sure to be sure).

Your biological filtration system is affected by pH, and the biological filtration will also change pH somewhat. If the biological filtration is very high efficiency in poorly buffered water then you risk having an acid crash.
The end product of nitrification is usually produced as nitrate salts....but under conditions of low calcium buffering the end product could be nitric acid (a strong acid, and can easily tip any water away from its buffer zone).

Carbonate hardness is important in pH. Carbonates (in their different forms) are salts of a weak acid....and will act as pH buffers to some extent (depends on exact amounts and proportions)
However, be aware.....you can have a high carbonate content with a high pH but in very soft water.
If you add sodium carbonate to hardwater caused by calcium bi-carbonate then you'll get soft water but the pH will be rather (dangerously) high if you don't measure the amount very precisely. This was what some people did years ago to get soft water...and lost fish.

Some domestic water softeners exchange calcium and magnesium ions in hard water with sodium ions...so any magnesium chloride in the original water will be put out as sodium chloride (at twice the concentration of the original magnesium chloride). For washing plates or clothes, this is not a problem.

I'll give that break for now.

ian

On your last question....CO2 will tend to lower pH, but that does depend upon the existing components in the water.

CO2 will also form a weak acid, and the salts of that (carbonates and bi-carbonates) are weak bases (the opposite of an acid). With these components in the water, they will act as a complex buffer system.

Doing theoretical stuff on CO2 is exactly that...theoretical. In fact, it can be a theoretical headache because there are certain difficulties in doing calculations with the carbon dioxide/carbonic acid/carbonate/bi-carbonate balance. It is, however, a super system.

Decomposition is likely to try to push the water to being more acidic.

Again, the degree to which it actually affects pH depends on other factors.

ian

I have began using Waterlife PH Buffer 6.5. Gotta say this stuff deos what it is suposed to, and has worked where no amount of peat got the PH down on my lousy tap water.

Downsides.
You ogtta do a tank you need to move the stock out first as it drops the ph very quickly.

If your water is very hard like mine there is some calcium discharge on the surface and on glass so a bit of cleanup required at first, not really a problem there after and only really happens with really hard water.

Wouldn't use it with shrimps or snails

Positives.
Gets the PH down and buffers it. Have steady 6.5 from 8.4 tap water. You gotta treat water changes too though.
Easy to use and has not bothered the fish during water changes.
reduces greatly the effects of toxins
Cheaper than peat by many times over, done 4 tanks for approximately €2 expense 700L of water and still have 4\5 of the container left that cost me £7 I think.
By altering the amount you use you cna buffer the tank at variuos levels.
You dont have to go into your filter to change media like peat every couple of weeks.

have moved my rummies into a planted treated with it and they're happily swimming about looking very colourful.

Has anyone else used his stuff?

I haven't got the funds to shell out €300 for a decent co2 system to lower PH as well as provide injection or the tank\plants to use it on tbh.

PH Buffer will drop the ph immediately almost, but depending on water hardness ect it may take several doses to obtain a stable PH as the PH may rise after initial treatment.

Mark

i'm considering filtering tap water through buckets of peatmoss into a water butt/wheelie bin to soften it, and using this (mixed with tap water to get it to the desired levels) for water changes to gradually bring it down. a bag off peatmoss is fek all and i reckon i'd only need a little to soften it rather than drop pH so it should last a long time

i prefer natural to chemical, but for the moment the denisonii's seem happy so i'm happy

joey wrote:

i'm considering filtering tap water through buckets of peatmoss into a water butt/wheelie bin to soften it, and using this (mixed with tap water to get it to the desired levels) for water changes to gradually bring it down. a bag off peatmoss is fek all and i reckon i'd only need a little to soften it rather than drop pH so it should last a long time

i prefer natural to chemical, but for the moment the denisonii's seem happy so i'm happy

@Joey......so if it isn't chemical in the peatmoss, what is it?

@Mark....In general I like waterlife products, I don't use a proprietary pH buffer so won't comment on that one except saying you need to be careful.
Really, you should calculate the estimated amount to add first as you never know where on the pH titration curve the system already exists. But that is not as easy to do as it is said because in a fish tank you are dealing with so many unknowns.
Trial and error and care are the key things.

CO2 injection is not a great way to buffer a tank.
It may be OK for us to have carbonic acid buffers in our body, but our body has some pretty fancy gadgets to control it all.
Calculations with CO2 can be tricky because of the problem of multiple components being involved in the equilibrium (carbon dioxide, carbonic acid, hydrogen carbonate) AND to complicate matters, the CO2 gas is in equilibrium with the air above the water and depends on the pressure (and partial pressure of CO2).

A few bags of tesco home brand Salt and Vinegar crisps would be a cheaper option than a CO2 fertiliser for pH buffering. ! (no....don't try that)

don't know about anyone else but almost all my tanks substrates are roughly 75% River/ Silver Sand and 25% Coral sand
I first add the River/ Silver Sand and then keep adding handfulls of Coral sand (mixing it into the r/s sand) untill it reaches the desired PH
works great for Me, never fluctuates...


My tap water is disgraceful, seems to have a mind of it's own, never know what to expect, I don't use it in the tanks, reverse osmosis with added electrolytes etc. etc. all the way...
if I'm to be completely honest, I use Volvic to brush My teeth...



Des

@ Ian
I was apprehensive about the PH buffer, so of course done some tests in a 5g bucket. Used on a stocked tank would most likely result in sick or dead fish the PH drop is so fast.
Can you explain why even with much peat ph wont come down as this has been the case for me since the thaw?



Mark

Mark. wrote:

@ Ian
I was apprehensive about the PH buffer, so of course done some tests in a 5g bucket. Used on a stocked tank would most likely result in sick or dead fish the PH drop is so fast.
Can you explain why even with much peat ph wont come down as this has been the case for me since the thaw?



Mark

Different 'buffers' or pH adjusters contain different things. A pH adjuster may not be a buffer at all...it may simply be sulphuric acid or simply potassium hydroxide that is being added to the tank.

So, one needs to be careful of the 2 things....they are not the same......

if I add sulphuric acid to my water it is simply going to reduce the pH; it is not a buffer. However, it may move the water to a buffered position (depending upon what else is in the water).

If, however, I add a mix a weak acid and a salt of that weak acid (eg phosphate plus phosphoric acide OR acetic acid and acetate) the it MAY change the pH, and it may buffer if the right combinations are used.

Peat adds weak acids (amongst other things), and may remove a certain amount of alkalinity (soften maybe).
If the buffering capacity of the water is very high or the water is rather basic (highish pH) then, although there may be a 'push' from these weak acids to reduce the pH, the weak acid won't have any noticeable effect on the pH.
It's a bit like me trying to push a lorry up-hill.....I can push in the right direction, but my attempt to push it to the top of the hill certainly is not a 'done-deal' and certainily won't happen within a few minutes.

Now that brings me to another aspect...... the direction of a change (eg from high to low pH) and the time it takes.

Even if we have something that we know WILL defo change the pH (and we can easily calculate that), we don't always know how long it will take.
It is not always instant.
Take, for example, a football on a house roof guttering.....we know that it will fall to the ground, but we don't know when unless we give it a very small shove. In chemistry, the giving it a 'shove' to lessen the time it takes to change is what a catalyst does.
When that football is on the ground, it is going to take more than a small shove to put it back upon the roof (and that is because it would prefer to be on the ground). The same principles work in chemical reactions.

ian

@ Ian
Thanks, from what you have explained I can definately stick to the buffer, I still run peat in the filters but not as much now and I don't have to be concerned with changing it so often, oit was futile since the thaw anyway. Light reduction and softening is the purpose of it now and not to keep the PH down. I can achieve the correct ph within 30 minutes and add it to the tank this way.
I have yet to test adding a % of untreated water to some treated water in a bucket to test buffering, will be interesting to see what happens if I add 40% untreated water to 60% treated water and see how the PH goes, will give it a go.


Mark