Tropheus malawi bloat

Hi all.Tropheus duboisi got sick.I bought today Octozin and Epsom Salts.I put all this stuf in fish tank(tank is 120 liter so 5 tablet of Octozin and 12 Table spoons of Epsom salt.Now waiting for tomorrow.
Question-or need tomorrow Epsom salt add to fish tank?Is there anything else I could have to do?

Not saying it's wrong, but just a question as to why you've used octozin?

The epsom salts....well, to be honest the tropheus are best in a magnesium buffered system anyway.

You need to make sure the redox balance of the water is correct. A good partial change of water is a must.

You need to check the most commonly tested parameters....pH, alkalinity, general hardness, etc etc.
Ideally test the redox, but not everyone has redox testing equipment...so that is probably out of the question.

The diet needs to be checked....but that is like locking the gate after the horse has bolted.
But Tropheus are specialist feeders and so will need that diet as a rule and not as a vote (even though they may well eat anything).

ian

What makes you think it's bloat? What are the symptoms?

As Ian says, diet is critical for Tropheus.

I used NUTRAFIN MAX spirulina flakes food.I change 40% water per week,ph is 7.5. 1 trophs was shy and was sat in the corner for 2 days and died-stomach was very big.Other 2 stomach was big and they was shy aswell.This morning they looks much better(stomach not so big).

So need to add more of Epsom salt today?

so no need octozin?only epsom salt?I read old topics and Mick0075 had same problem and Darkrin recommended
-Use epsom salts to flush out their stomachs and stop feeding them.. maybe 2 days until you can see them looking for food again,hopefully..
Doing a course of octozin through all this.
Get Water ready for a change when finished course.


so how is there is really?

The epsom salts is not for flushing the stomach....it may work with us and with goldfish though, unless you are using it at a concentration much greater than would be natural for a tanganyikan tank.

The advantage of the epsom salts in a tanganyikan tank is that it will increase the hardness, increase the buffering of RedOx potential and help in re-establishing an ionic balance.

The kidney of fish is rather delicate, and my take on 'malawi bloat' is that has been called a 'malady' in the past when it is a symptom of an interaction of incorrect water balance, incorrect balance and that could then lead onto a bacterial infection.

Hence, you'd need to address all problems by correcting the water, correcting the food, and then addressing the possibility of bacterial (either primary or secondary) infections.

I think that Octozin is a superb medicine for certain things, but I'm wondering under what rational it is being used here?
ie so long as it is not being used as a cure for malawi-bloat then that will be fine; if it is used under the idea of being an additional treatment then that is fine as it will address some of the secondary problems.
Often, the upset in diet or water conditions will compromise the state of the intestine and Octozin is rather good at dealing with such compromise.

ian

gedukasoo wrote:

I used NUTRAFIN MAX spirulina flakes food.I change 40% water per week,ph is 7.5. 1 trophs was shy and was sat in the corner for 2 days and died-stomach was very big.Other 2 stomach was big and they was shy aswell.This morning they looks much better(stomach not so big).

your p.h is way too low.should be at least 8.2 or higher.

I repeat yesterday dose of epsom salt and this morning fish was in very good health.I not fed for 2 days.So i don't know who helped?


Fish looks healthy now, thanks for help for all.

The alkalinity is more important than pH.
But it all depends upon the overall balance in the tank.

The reason a higher pH is an important measure is that it gives added confidence to the alkalinity of the water. A low pH may mask the level alkalinity existing in the tank water

On the whole, if no problems are noted then we may reasonably assume all is well and good; but once ANY indicator of incorrect water is noted (eg malawi bloat or dropsy or many illnesses as well) then the water conditions need to be re-checked and anything anecdotal should be put to the past.

To give added confidence to the alkalinity and RedOx, I assume that a buffering substrate (eg crushed coral) is used. But that in itself is of little use for long-term health if water changes don't replenish the 'battery' so to speak.

Measuring of GH for example is a total waste of time unless regular partial water changes are done.
The GH hardness test will give a result, but unless it is measuring replenished and useful GH then it is of little use....and in a tanganyikan tank that is vitally important.

We are now probably fortunate in having access to tank-bred tanganyikans, but in my days you could not get hold of tank-bred Tropheus nor frontosas.....they came straight from the lake to our water, and boy where they difficult cookies to get going. It was murder to get my first Tropheus and frontosas to breed....and in those days I knew of no-one else who had bred them.

You should try to get a bit of buffering at a higher pH if possible....but only do it safely. Done wrong, and it will cause bigger problems. Theory is one thing, practice is another.

ian

yeah you can get away with a lower p.h, but the p.h in the lake is nearly 9.I like to keep it higher if I can.If you are having problems with certain fish It's good to close every door on problems.IMHO.

I will raise the pH up.Thank you all for help.

How is the guy getting on by the way?

Yesterday I changed 40% water, today I tested the pH - ph about 8.fish looks healthy.Now use the other food-New Life spectrum food.What gives Epsom Salt for fish?
I hope my fish not get sick.

Im not going to get into a debate on who's right or wrong, but as I was quoted and questioned, I'll explain the questions asked.

Gedas never mentioned that 2 fish had already died in his original post, and it was the 3rd fish that was beginning to show similar symptoms.
So action had to be taken quickly.

REF:-

www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/malawi_bloat.php

In my experience Tropheus usually get 'bloat' when stressed, new arrivals or newly moved fish etc . Water quality is always good and I only use NLS as food.
I have tried anti bacterial medication in this situation and found it didn't work, so I'd be one to agree that bloat is caused by internal parasites.
In the above article it mentions Metro and Clout, both unavailable in Ireland.. The closest we have is Octozin- treatment for internal parasites.
I have used Octozin many times with great success on Trophs that are 'going off' food or 'hanging' away from the group, usually the following day the fish has returned to normal feeding - when treated early

Epsom salts I don't use, but in this situation (120 L tank) levels could easily be elevated above natural levels and maybe have the desired laxative effect- It was worth a shot ?

Conclusion- the treatment worked and the Posters fish has returned to health.

I'm a great fan of Octozin......but I use it mainly for its anti-bacterial action.
It can sort out some bacteria that other off-the-shelf medicines don't.
Of particular interest are the anaerobic bacteria....octozin is pretty good against them.

But anything containing flagyl (metronidazole) or similar will not only see away internal parasites, it will also deal with many anaerobic bacterial infections. It is part of my frog medicine chest.

Hence, if anti-bacterials don't work yet Octozin does then that does not rule out anaerobic bacterial infection in favour of parasites.

So, Octozin IS the choice medication for malawi bloat IMO.

However, with malawi bloat (as with hole-in-the-head) it is often a question of the chicken or the egg as to the exact causal agent.
As we know, many fish will have a certain amount of parasites in their gut......my take would be that the causal agent is that which triggers those organisms to become pathologically significant.

Most of my Tanganyikans and malawis that I kept were wild caught and straight from the lake to me (back in the 70s and 80s)....and I never experienced 'malawi bloat'.
However, I did see and do many autopsies on recently caught fish showing malawi bloat that had gone here and there on their journey to someones tank.
Whilst some showed infection, some didn't (I didn't bother doing a bacterial culture test though for any defo ID of bacteria)....but what was consistent was that the RedOx balance of the tank waters were incorrect for the particular species of fish (or region of the lake the fish came from).

This is quite a complex debate, for want of a better word, the jury is still out; and it is still out on Hole-In-The-Head (but that is more of a vitamin deficiency disorder than anything else in my experience) because of the chicken and the egg situation.

Ultimately, however, the important things are correct water, lowering stress levels and good diet as prevention is better than cure.

With good preventative action, the causal agent is purely academic.


ian