organic aqua revisited - Part I

Didihno wrote:

I doubt a teaspoon of the marine health treatment had much of an adverse effect if any. Perhaps Organic Steve can comment?

Organic health treatment is for both MARINE and FRESHWATER.
Its a very good product, but not a miracle curer

Dayo.

Hi didi,
Sorry to hear about your loss. Could you please outline for me your filtration set up on your hospital tank?
You mentioned adding a small spoon of the Health Treatment but never quoted the size of the tank or whether you used any of the other products in conjunction with the HT. Did u test the water for anything? Was the fish open mouthed when u found it?
Apologies for delay in response- had difficulties logging on yesterday.
I obviously watch this thread with keen interest but avoid posting unless specifically asked something so if anyone has any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me here, by PM or email (This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.).
I look forward to fielding questions on this still clearly misunderstood new method of fishkeeping.

Cheers,

Steve

Hi all,
Sorry if anything I posted was unclear. I'll lay out the chain of events here.
Friday: Picked up massive adult male and 42 adult female severum from AV2. Female had not eaten in the store the day I asked to see them fed, but the male had. The male had previously been brought in the same bucket as the female and had beaten the sh1t out of her so she was separated and had regron 95% finnage and looked good. I gave them a really good acclimatisation period.
Saturday: Overnight the male (and possibly other tankmates: clown loaches/green severum) had beaten her again, with 50% fin damage but no body damage. Separated into large breeding net. No food taken. Fish displayed full stress bars.
Sunday: Set up 20L hospital tank with small internal filter. No food taken. Fish still displays full stress bars.
Monday: Purchased OA start up kit for 10-20l tanks. Performed 75% water change and added OA as per instructions. Washed filter in tap water. Fish now displays half stress bars. No food taken.
Tuesday: Added pump/airstone after consulting forums. Filter was providing great aeration and surface disruption so I didn't think it was necessary. Fish still displays half stress bars. No food taken.
Wednesday: Fish observed to be wobbling slightly and hovering at the surface with its forehad breaking the surface. No food taken. Added a teaspoon of health treatment.
Thursday morning: Fish was dead. Brought carcass to AV and Drew checked for whateevr he checks for but came up clean. Drew will replace the fish whenever he gets a suitable replacement.

My conclusions: Well, I don't fault anyone really. IMO I did everything by the book with the exception of not added an airstone straight away. The OA did help to slightly visibly calm the creature which was the intention, it is not a miracle cure Steve, I know that, I only wanted to give the fish a calm quiet place to recover. The fish itself never ate in my custody, who knows why. The actual harm to the fish did not seem severe as I have brought back fish with much, much worse damage. Stress is pretty visible though. The creature was obviously not happy at all as it never lost its stress bars and overall dark complexion. I'm not sure if it was a fair test of OA in the end, as the fish might have had catastrophic suffering, mentally rather than physically. That sounds stupid I know but I'll try it again sometime, if any other fish gets a hammering.

I agree that this can hardly be a conclusive test.
I can see that the HT calmed the fish for a couple of days and then the fish displayed symptoms of oxygen deprivation (hovering at the surface).
This could have been due to ammonia or nitrite as due to the late arrival or the airpump I would highly suspect that the OA didnt work to its full potential.
I know it seems bizzare but I cannot stress enough the importance of an airpump when using OA.
We all know how quickly things can go wrong if you mess with the biological filtration in a traditional tank.
When you add the products the airpump provides enough oxygen in the water for the bacteria to 'colonize' the water in the tank very quickly.
If the air supply is not present the colonies will diminish very rapidly.
The fish in question is a reasonably large (4"?) fish which is not only refusing food (any uneaten food, particularly high protein cichlid pellets - ammonia source) but is also stressed (higher breathing or osmoregulatory functions produce more ammonia being excreted through the gills).
This in only 20L of water can become a lethal problem very quickly.
Also did you have a lid on the tank?
Was it left open?
And again can you remember if the fishes mouth was open when you found her?

The fish was about 5" including tail.
Uneaten food was removed completely.
This fish was not gasping for air though, breathing normally IMO.
Don't forget that there was a 75% water change as instructed as well as the OA added. Ammonia/nitrite should not only not be a factor, but also shouldn't the function of the OA prevent same from being a factor?

On aeration, is the oxygen transfer from a stream of bubbles secondary to the oxgen transfer from the surface tension disturbance from the jet of an internal filter? This is my understanding and the reason why the airstone wasn't added for a day. Quite simply, the airstone was doing about 1/4 of the surface disruption of the filter jet, if that. Does the bubbles rising in the water perform some other role other than surface disruption?

Finally, its mouth was closed and bizarrely all fins were fully extended. I actually had to look twice to notice the fish was dead.

IMO the fish was a gonner from start to finish! It was showing signs from day one. Didi you did your best but sometimes there is no cure!

Why not set up a small tanks with a new OA test. I can give you guppies if you want. Then that will be the test to see how effective it is. AS i have said I have used it for many months and find it fantastic!!

Uneaten food was removed completely.

Even if you remove the food after a few mins there can be some breakdown of the organic proteins in the food that could add to a possible ammonia problem. When used as directed OA deals with this very effectivly.

Don't forget that there was a 75% water change as instructed as well as the OA added. Ammonia/nitrite should not only not be a factor, but also shouldn't the function of the OA prevent same from being a factor?

The instructions state to do a 25% w/c or a 75% if your water quality isn't great.

due to the late arrival or the airpump I would highly suspect that the OA didnt work to its full potential.

On aeration, is the oxygen transfer from a stream of bubbles secondary to the oxgen transfer from the surface tension disturbance from the jet of an internal filter? This is my understanding and the reason why the airstone wasn't added for a day. Quite simply, the airstone was doing about 1/4 of the surface disruption of the filter jet, if that. Does the bubbles rising in the water perform some other role other than surface disruption?

When you add the products the airpump provides enough oxygen in the water for the bacteria to 'colonize' the water in the tank very quickly.
If the air supply is not present the colonies will diminish very rapidly.

I know it makes very little sense because your filter seems to create so much more aeration. The bubbles from an airstone are in the water for longer and therefore have more time to become 'absorbed' by it.
These are conclusions I have reached after extensive 'trial and error' research using many different methods.

Finally, its mouth was closed and bizarrely all fins were fully extended. I actually had to look twice to notice the fish was dead.

The closed mouth would suggest that ammonia and nitrite were not the cause of death here.
This would also suggest that OA did in fact function as intended but, not being a miracle cure, the fish died.
Who knows, maybe it was very old and after two (documented) vicious beatings was going to die anyway.

Sorry Steve but have to pull you on this:
'...The instructions state to do a 25% w/c or a 75% if your water quality isn't great...'

I'm sure I'm misconstruing that statement as a weak attempt to deflect some perceived critisism of OA's role here i.e. my water quality wasn't great. The water quality was first rate as it was 100% clean water to start with, the filter was a mature seeded filter (well the floss was), with a 75% water change and OA added. The filter was then 'killed' with tap water.

From the OA website: 'When converting an existing system to Organic Aqua, firstly perform a ONE OFF 75% water change (a great opportunity to do a really good clean out!) and add the Organic Aqua Start Up Kit to the new water being replaced'

On the airstone issue, I have always believed that the opposite was the case. Here is a wiki entry, not quotable science but I'm sure with more effort one could get the info. If you read the part where the rate of dissolution/absorbtion of the bubbled oxygen being far too slow for an air bubble from an airstone to be of much use. However the action of breaking the surface tension and general surface turbulence allowing for much greater exchange of gasses:
theaquariumwiki.com/Air_stone
I have read this on many different occasions, and to be frank, it kind of disagrees totally with your reasoning for adding an airstone compared the work a filter jet does. Bubbled air simply does not remain in the water long enough to do what you say it does.

Now, if OA was pitched as requiring strong surface water movement to facilitate gaseous exchange, that would make more sense.

Oh, and just to confirm, I do not blame OA, AV or myself for the death of this animal. It just happened despite best efforts.
Interesting debate though.

Must update the website as I was quoting from the instruction pamphlet that comes with the start up and maintenance kits.

Your wiki thing is about gas exchange whereas I'm talking about the oxygen IN the OA water (which has been treated with General Treatment, allowing the water to absorb more oxygen than NON-OA water) which acts as a bio-media for the UNIQUE STRAIN of bacteria in the BBAC to live in the water.
Yes it is a difficult one to grasp but there you are.

I have read this on many different occasions, and to be frank, it kind of disagrees totally with your reasoning for adding an airstone compared the work a filter jet does. Bubbled air simply does not remain in the water long enough to do what you say it does.

If you would rather put your faith in 'how it should be' then please try using the product without an airstone and see how things go.
Believe it or not I have a vested interest in this product doing well and have no desire to promote any potentially lethal methods.

Remember that the laws of physics are still trying to work out how a bumble bee can fly as it is according to these laws it is 'impossible' for it to do so.

Thank you for your interest in OA.
It is an interesting debate.

I agree with Steve, I have experimented with OA using a venturi valve instead of a filter. The OA failed to kick in full strength and was non existent the next day with high ammonia readings, this was done with danio's in a 20l . I have found Only an airstone at the bottom works 100%. As Steve says the organic aqua general treatment changes how water interacts with air as I have already explained in my previous post on how OA works in layterms (being the only terms I can state with certainty, as I am not a scientist!)

I personally think the fish was a goner from the start. Maybe the lfs and your home water parameters were too different for the already suffering fish to acclimatise to, ie stressed beaten and suffering from ph shock that just pushed it over the edge.
Sorry to hear it died i'm sure AV will look after you.

I know it's difficult especially when it goes against all previous fish keeping knowledge but when trying OA for the first time it is essential to stick to the exact guidelines as specified in the pamphlet in the packaging or it will simply not work correctly.

Steve I like the bee analogy! it's funny how as a species we will read horoscopes, will accept psychologys theories of sub conscious even though it's non empericle, will go try acupuncture or reiki for ailments and all sorts of unprovable stuff and when we are presented with something simple and completely empericle like organic aqua we just can't accept that it functions because it seems too good to be true.

I think people would be better to perceive OA as what it is; a water control system that increases fish stocking capacity, minimises health problems and reduces maintenance. Rather then what some die hard conservative fish keepers have insinuated, that it is some hokey holistic muck in a tub thats just sold to beginners to line your pockets. It's a completely empericle product with a growing number of glowing testimonials to back it up, it's only a question of time before it catches on and if your pockets happen to get lined with cash in the end well you deserve it! many people don't know or appreciate the extraordinary lengths you have gone to to improve fish keeping knowledge and therefore fish welfare in this country.

How many people here would spend months up to their armpits in water overhauling petshops to improve fish welfare and give advice and education to new fish keepers all day long both OA and non OA alike..... for free? Not many I think!

Hi,
I'm a relative novice in terms of fishkeeping although I have a tank for several years. I followed this debate closely and have come down on the side of those who say give it a chance. I believe in water changes although my tank at one stage had reached equilibrium where the fish were happy, no losses except through old age, no disease, tank was heavily planted and plants growing strongly and even anubia flowering and java ferns propogating and I only changed every two months or if I noticed the fish not happy - I do love my fish!!
I have decided to give organic aqua a try so will keep you up to date. Tank is 2 foot by 12 by 15. Coldwater (22 degree) set up with Fluval 2+ filter and heater. Have added 12in airstone powered by old airpump I had. also contains anubias and java fern, java and christmas moss, some star moss and other unknown plants.
Occupants are one Ginormous apple snail ?, 8 white clouds, 5 bronze corys, one butterfly loach and an amano shrimp
Did the necessary tonight with a gravel clean, water change and added normal tap water with the organic aqua bits. Cleaning the filter in tap water was a struggle though
fish did not seem bothered and while clouds looked happier then ever chasing each other around.
will post pics and a weekly update if nobody minds

Feargal

Cheers Feargal,
will be looking forward to your posts
Mickey

Hi Feargal,

Delighted to hear you are going Organic!

One piece of advice I would offer for your particular set up would be the use of OA Plant Treatment.

This is due to the elevated levels of oxygen in an OA set up which plants don`t always thrive in.

OA Plant Treatment is a non phosphate or nitrate based fertilizer with various ingredients added to help the plants extract any available CO2 from the water.

If you have any difficulty in obtaining this from your local supplier please contact me directly and I will advise further.

Looking forward to your pics and updates!


Cheers,

Steve

Steve
Took your advice and have got the plant treatment and gave it its first does on friday so heres hoping it all goes well .Fish still happy and thriving and hope to post pics tomorrow

Feargal

Steve are there any plants you would not recommend using OA plant treatment on? Keeping in mind you have to keep the ph between 6.8 -7.

Can you explain the equation; number of plants = lenght(cm./in.) x depth(cm.in.) over 50(metric)/8(us). ?

Hi,
some pics. Apologise for quality as they are definitely not up to the standard of most of the pics on this forum. Will try again but one thing I can say is I've never seen the water so clear
PS wire on right is used for attaching food for my snail to keep him off plants


Feargal

Could you use the OA Plant Treatment in a planted tank with no fish in it?

Have you used this product yourself Steve?

Also interested (like platy252) if this product is suitable for use with all aquatic plants?

Where can I find instructions for the OA Plant Treatment, other than buying the product itself, does anyone have these that they can share?

Hi Master Zig,
this any help?

www.organicaqua.com/plant

mickey

Apart from what it says on there site and the plant stocking equation (that i dont get at all), all it says is 1 ml treats 2.5 litres. Apply weekly.

Hi guys,

Sorry was away and only getting back online now!

Have asked the guys in SA for a bit of clarity on the mysterious plant equation and will keep you posted in that regard.

In so far as which plants can / cannot be kept using OA Plant Treatment, there is no reason why any plants cannot be kept as the pH guideline is there to indicate the parameters within which an algal problem is least likely.

I have used the stuff myself with resounding success, in fact I use it on all the house plants and even in the back garden!

Use a double dose of it if you are trying to encourage a plant back to full health if it has been attacked by a plant nipper such as a Silver Dollar or similar.

The product can be used as a stand alone product without the use of the other OA products and I cannot see why it would not be just as effective in a tank without fish.

If anyone else has any experiences (good or bad!) using Plant Treatment or any other OA products please post here as the more feed back we get the better we can serve!

I will do my best to answer any queries you may have.


Cheers,

Steve

P.S. Feargal- Glad to hear your water is so clear! Dying to see pics!! S

ok i have been following this thread for a while now and still havent really formed any opinion on wether i should try it or not being an old fashioned fishkeeper ie regular maintenance, was going to try it when i saw it in petmania until i worked out the costs involved... thats a heck of a yearly cost considering the amount of tanks i run, whereas a 5 litre of my old faithful easylife costs €60 and treats all my tanks for nearly a year... is there really such need for these prices???, also is it true i heard that if you do not use the oa maintenance kit the water quality crashes??
just a query

Some pics. Quality dire so apologies. Fish very happy

s709.photobucket.com/albums/ww98/sincgar/OAWeek2/

Note from Admin, fixed it to be a link, it was not a link to a photo directly just a page of photos, if you want to show the photos here, do exactly as you did but use the link for each photo you want to display.

Help. Did what it said in the photo section and can see the /img bits but URL is not appearing

Hi sheag35,

Just to dispel any disinformation - if you stop using the OA products at the end of a monthly cycle there should be no crash in water quality as the traditional bacteria have had a month to colonize the media (even if it is only mechanical).
However, it would be prudent to keep a close eye on levels and get straight back into regular water changes as soon as you can if you discontinue using OA.

As far as costings go, in a situation such as yours where you are running many tanks, the Pond Range of OA products can be used.
Health Treatment (H.T.) comes in a 1kg size which treats 2,500 litres,
BBAC treats the same,
General Treatment (G.T.) 1litre will do 20,000 litres in a pond or 10,000 litres in a tank (different stocking densities = different bioload)for one week (ie- 1,000l for 10wks).

H.T. EURO 35
BBAC EURO 24
G.T. EURO 35

Total Kit EURO 94 (RRP, prices may vary)


For example 1x 300l, 2x 200l, 3x 100l tanks treated as follows-

H.T. & BBAC
Start Up - 1000l
Monthly - 250l (ie 25% w/c)

So 1x H.T. and 1x BBAC will last this group of tanks for Start Up and 6 months of maintenance at 25% p/m.
Then 1x H.T. and 1x BBAC will last for 10 months maintenance.

G.T.
1x G.T. dosed weekly will last 10 weeks

2x H.T. EURO 70
2x BBAC EURO 48
6x G.T. EURO 210

EURO 328 = 16 months
EURO 20.5= 1 month (average)

Remember though that not only are you saving time and water but you are also not using any chemicals.

Hope this helps...

Cheers,

Steve

Steve,
Your maths are appealing for the bulk buy and given the reduction in the workload and water. I'm delighted with my setup. The tank looks spotless, the fish, snail and shrimp look very happy. the amano shrimp has even shred his skin and reappeared in his new coat. the plants are looking healthy and I get more time to spend looking rather than having to fill, heeat water etc and I have only one tank. I'm tempted to do the bulk purchase ven for my limited set up.
If I can find the right 'quiet' air pump my other small tank will also follow the same OA route

Feargal

PS: Would really like to talk to you re a marine OA tank as the sponsors have a very good offer at the moment but put off by having to do weekly water changes etc and getting the water parameters right each time. A monthly change would lessen the stree on ME and the fish

Nice one Feargal,

Glad to hear that all is still well.

In so far as setting up a salt water system, I would advise you to go for it!

As you know there is some discussion about this in the marine forum (converting a rio 180 to marine) at the moment but if you do choose to go down this road please contact me directly when doing so and I can give you step by step advise on getting started.

Cheers,

Steve

P.S. Use a valve to 'tune' your airflow. This will offer some back pressure to the airpump and quieten it down considerably. S

So this thread has now had over 6,500 hits!
And no one has any further organic experiances?
Get posting!!!

Im using OA for over 3 years and delighted with it. I was'nt aware I could bulk buy, Ive been buying 2 packs a month. Where can I get the jumbo packs. Cheers

Bulk packs are available anywhere that stocks the products.
Just ask for a pond pack- u may have to order it.
PM me if you have any difficulties.
Nice one- keep it organic!!

Great,thanks for that, Steve.