organic aqua revisited - Part I

Sean

First decent dicussion in ages and you seem determined to make it into a farce. What is the youtube link for, apart for being totally unsuitable it is 100% irrelevant.

If you want to critise OA please do so in a constructive manner, you have not even tried the stuff!!


Daragh

Daragh_Owens wrote:

Sean

First decent dicussion in ages and you seem determined to make it into a farce. What is the youtube link for, apart for being totally unsuitable it is 100% irrelevant.

If you want to critise OA please do so in a constructive manner, you have not even tried the stuff!!


Daragh

Sorry its was posted at 2AM;) , there was 2 utube links the one that's left is funny the other one enough said:( , I glad its removed:cheer: they do not call me Father Jack for now reason.

The text copied from the website is relevant to the thread, basically the have no North American office, may be the U.S rules don't yet allow the sale of it´, the marketing behind the Organic is amature, If my business had a website this amature I would be embarrassed, not to mention a guy with a mob number in the U.K.

Basically I think the product is a good idea:ohmy: , it just how its marketing is not good enough, PG tips also sells tea leaves but the diffrence is how they market/marketing is done.

Sean I think Steve is from the UK hence the UK mobile no.

For those of you that have not seen the site here is the link www.organicaquariums.co.za/

to me it seems fine but everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how silly!!!

Its probally silly, hey in any case the owners look fairely honest looking, perhaps they live on the farm, and as you know most farms do not have addresses:) , I guess when they reg their website on "whois" they just made this up.
Or perhaps this adresse is real and they with hold it from there site, for sure some silly reason.

Owner Contact:
Luke Davidson
Organic Aquariums
30 Heath RD
Cape Town, 7750, ZA

Punycode Name: organicaqua.com
Unicode Name: organicaqua.com

Admin Contact
Luke Davidson
Organic Aquariums

30 Heath RD
Cape Town, 7750, ZA
phone: +27.825863224



Website Record expires on: 2009-04-26 07:11:51

It is a shame to see this thread brought to such a low level, who cares what the proprietor of the business looks like, it has absolutely no relevance to the effectiveness of the product or not.

The thread was started with someones actual experience with the product, any posts with positive or negative comments based on use would be welcome. If someone chooses not to use the product for whatever reasons, that’s fair enough too, there is no need to go to childish lengths to discredit it without trying it.

So anyone else out there with any comments on Organic Aqua?


Daragh

Hi all,

I've had a 450L Malawi tank for just over 12 months with +/- 36 Cichlids in it. This is my first time keeping fish and it's been a great experience/learning curve.

A few weeks ago things started to deteriorate and I lost 3 fish in one day. Long story short is my LFS introduced me to Organic Aqua and suggested the addition of an Internal Jad SP-2300III submersible filter to take some of the pressure off my TetraTec 1200 external + it would add some much needed flow to the tank and they suggested I leave my TetraTec APS400 air pump on 24/7.

I did a huge water change, cleaned the ex1200 filter (used tank water NOT tap water) and introduced the OA starter kit.

I can't believe the results in such a short time. It's now 3 days on and the tank is absolutely flying. The fish are really active and happy, the water is crystal clear and all is well.

I know its a product which requires monthly commitment (€'s) but if it saves me doing 3 x 150L water changes a month, imporves the health of the fish and improves the look of the tank then it's well worth it.

Even though the instructions clearly stated that the media in the ex 1200 should be washed in tap water I simply couldn't bring myself to do it so washed them as usual in tap water "to be on the safe side" but having read all of this thread it seems that was a mistake. I was always warned to NEVER wash out filters in tap water so it seems un natural to do so but I think I understand why with OA you have to.

Could someone advise me what to do? Should I leave well alone until it's time for the maintenance kit in 3.5 weeks time and then wash all out in tap water or should I do it now?

Regards,

Ben

Hi Ben, I've been using OA for 3 years and only recently have learned about cleaning the filters in tap water.Up to six months ago I was cleaning them in tank water without any mishaps. I am now cleaning in tap water but half in tap and half in tank water

I know it's hard to bring yourself to washing the media in tap water but the idea is to kill of the bacteria that would normally take care of fish waste and let the OA do it's thing.
So i would say clean the filters in tap water.
It is important to keep the water aerated 24/7 and to vent the air from the tank. By that i mean keeping the lid open slightly. Even if it's just opening the top of the aquarium at night. This way the nitrogen gas (from fish waste) gets expelled and not reintroduced in to the water.

Thanks platy.I've to do a monthly water change on Saturday,hopefully I'll have the bottle to use the tap.Are you saying that you can have too much bacteria.

Thanks Louis and Platty.

I'm lucky in so far as my tank was custom made with two 'panels' slotting onto the top of the tank over 8 inches over the condensation trays and each panel has two holes about 4cm in diameter to slot your fingers into to lift off so by pushing the condensation trays together to leave 6 inch gaps at each end the 4 holes in the two panels will (I hope) provide enough for the gasses to escape.

Can I clarify a few things?

1. OA and the traditional biological filter methods are mutually exclusive, it's one or the other. Correct? This is why we have to wash the traditional media in tap water to kill off the normally 'good' bacteria?

2. If all the 'good' bacteria in the external filter are killed off and for whatever reason I don't want to continue with OA or the people supplying it go bust (pure speculation) will the tank gently return to the traditional method or will there be a period of massive disruption where the OA runs out but there isn't enough bacteria in the external filter to revert to the traditional system?

3. From my description of my own system above can/should I remove the condensation trays all together? What exactly are they designed to do and in an OA set up are they still needed?

Regards,

Ben

The bacteria is different. Normally you would have Nitrosomas that convert Ammonia in to Nitrite and Nitrobacters that convert Nitrite in to Nitrate which is removed during water changes.
With Organic aqua i dont know what the bacteria is or even if it works solely by chemicals. But i do know OA recommend killing of the normal bacteria by washing the media in tap water.

Hi Platty,

Thanks for clarifying that.

Can you (or anyone else) shed any light on the other questions I asked about reverting back to a biological system from OA and my condensation trays?

Regards,

Ben

Hi Ben,

condensation trays have no other purpose but preventing evaporation and eventually saving fish from suicidal jumps(since your tank is custom made the hood itself should avoid this).
You can remove those trays which would be beneficial to OA but your tank would experience some loss of water due to evaporation(topping up with fresh tap water would then be necessary).

I have set-up and maintained many OA tanks with or without external filters.both have proved to be working perfectly and this with or without biological filtration in external or internal filters.
In the eventuality that you decide to go back to more frequent water change,weaning off OA is possible and not so complicated as long as you stop washing your filter media in tap water and start water changing more frequently(if that's what you decide to do that is )

hope this helps.

Dimitri

BenEadir wrote:

1. OA and the traditional biological filter methods are mutually exclusive, it's one or the other. Correct? This is why we have to wash the traditional media in tap water to kill off the normally 'good' bacteria?

Yes they are mutually exclusive, they negate each others effects.
They are both "Correct" methods of filtration.
All media must be kept clean, by clean I mean tap water. any buildup of Nitrafying bacteria will negate OA, You cannot have both and have a stable system. It's one or the other.


BenEadir wrote:

2. If all the 'good' bacteria in the external filter are killed off and for whatever reason I don't want to continue with OA or the people supplying it go bust (pure speculation) will the tank gently return to the traditional method or will there be a period of massive disruption where the OA runs out but there isn't enough bacteria in the external filter to revert to the traditional system?

One of the huge benifits of Organic Aqua is its application in cycling a tank. you symply stop cleaning the filter and carry out te last of your OA water treatments without water change at the end and there will be a nice hand over of OA to the newly established traditional bacteria.
By the way OA has been around for nearly 40 years, they aint going bust anytime soon!

BenEadir wrote:

3. From my description of my own system above can/should I remove the condensation trays all together? What exactly are they designed to do and in an OA set up are they still needed?

As another user mentioned above, condensation trays are not part of the filter system. They should be either removed or have holes drilled in them in order to let the Nitrates escape.

It's about time I spoke up about my experience with Organic aqua as I may have preformed one of the largest tests in Ireland and probably anywhere outside of Africa. 5500 Litre system, 12 months. 100,000s fish, 10,000 at any one time with a turnover of 3000 a week. Losses from previous tradtional system were between 15 and 30 percent a week of newly delivered fish, 150 to 300. Losses after switching to OA were down to 1 - 3 percent. Thats between 10 to 30 fish a week, out of adding 3000 fish just arrived from foreign suppliers!!! test performed on large retail outlet by myself and Steve. And yes Marines too. I will go further into my experiences when I have more time. Ie a review of where it works best.

One incredible experience I have had using organic is as follows: I person came into me one day with a large, about 10 inch shubunkin goldfish, longfinned variety. He said that he had attempted to put the fish into a cichlid tank (African) after being told by the person in the garden center in which he bought it a few days before, that it would be fine with cichlids... He wanted me to take it because the fish was in a terrible state.

The Caudual Peduncle, the fleshy part before the caudual/tale fin was completely eaten away on one side, to the point that the spine was visible, the wound was large and badly infected covered in fungus and the fish itself had cloudy eyes and was barely alive. It was also missing allot of scales and had large nips taken out of its other fins. I said that I would take it off his hands and put out it out of its misery as it was suffering, if he wanted me to. He said plaese, as he wouldnt be able to bring himself to do it. Steve and I had just converted the coldwater tanks to Organic aqua a day or two before. After the customer left I happened to be talking to Steve and he suggested I put the badly wounded fish in the Organic water, saying he would be fine. I was very skeptical but agreed to give this fish a chance.

3 Weeks later I gave the fish to a friend with a pond, fully healed (Although still showing scars) and healthy as any goldfish I have seen. I could not believe the turn around.

I found organic worked best in Coldwater, showing absolutely stunning results. It also worked incredibley well with tropical community fish, tetra, barbs, livebearers etc showing a massive decrease in weekly losses from delivery. I did have some initial problems with Discus untill I upped the air pressure to the airstone, realising that the higher temperature in the discus tank required more oxygenation as warm water loses air fast.

African Cichlids thrived, showing full colour and no incidence of disease or death, except by the occasional fish being killed or wounded by another fish which is just part of the nature of Cichlid keeping, as some individuals just show very aggresive streaks. I was delighted with the marines using Organic aqua, It cut the work load in half when it came to water care. All fish thrived. Organic Aqua works great and allows you to keep an enormous amount of fish in a relatively small body of water. which is great for retail trying to meet the demands of the growing fish hobby.

I remember someone ordered 10 large Koi, and was to collect them on delivery. Unfortunatly he never showed, even though he had payed half the cash. We were unable to reach him by the number he gave us and were landed with 10x 10-12 inch koi. So we put them in the only coldwater tank we had available at the time, A four foot 210 litre tank. They lived there for 4 months untill the guy finally showed. Without incident and feeding/looking great, water was still crystal clear.

The Only filtration was an airstone with organic aqua. I could ramble on and on about the virtues of this product having first hand experience with it. Lets just say that one day in the future it is gonna catch on (in the States probably first), and then it will eventually become a normal method for keeping fish and fishkeeping books will have sections devoted to its usage just as they now have devoted to using stress coat and zyme etc. Thats my opinion, and once you have used it for any lenght of time you will see where that opinion comes from, the solid fact that Organic Aqua is an excellent, and in many ways superior way to keep healthy, happy fish.

I do not understand the skeptisism of people who say its hocus pocus without trying it first. It works, end of story just ask anyone who uses it. How many people here can tell me exactly how traditional systems work? Im talking the science here, not in laymans terms but in chemical terms? Not many I am sure, and yet these same people will say they would not use or try it because they dont understand how it works when they barely understand the basic science of the traditional method. Fact is the science has been done,tried tested and tweaked. the product works and is a huge jump forward in bio tech compared to the traditional methods which have barely changed in decades.

For those who take issue with Steve posting about Organic aqua. Well one day you will realise that Steve is doing a huge service to fishkeepers worldwide by letting people know about this way of fishkeeping. Just because it doesnt have a Tetra, API or Nutrifin stamp and comes from an obscure family run company in the middle of S.Africa does not mean that it doesnt have merit.

The reason why you will never see an article about it in a magazine such as practical fishkeeping or a sponsered website is because these publications are sponsered by the aquatics industry Giants such as Tetra, API etc. and they are not gonna let some little Product from Africa put them out of business! (I have actually met the owners of this company and they were extremely nice people who were very interested in my experiences with OA)

I have been banned from Practical fishkeeping forum for writing a product review of Organic Aqua and my posts on it deleted. It was in the same forum section that contained reviews about stress coat, Blackwater extract and such. and Mine was deleted!

For those of you who are not afraid to try new things and think in a new way about the science of water chemistry I highly recommend trying Organic Aqua.

PS: I am not affiliated to Organic aqua in any way, nor do I still work in the same aqatics retailer. I Have never made a cent from the Organic aqua.I'm just a fishkeeper who had the pleasure of trying this out for myself on a massive scale and am still awed by the results. Anyone needs any OA advice I can help, as I have allot of experience and training (By Steve!) on its usage.

I am surprised your post was removed from the PFK site. After all if i remember correctly there first pod cast (or what ever you want to call it) was about organic aqua.
I agree it is very good and would recommend it to anyone starting a tank. Even if it was only to get them past the cycle stage.

Trimax have you tried it on very soft very acidic water? I mean a really low ph. If so what did you think?

Good discussion. Any marine tank keepers using OA? I only have spoken to 1 guy using OA for marines on a new fish shipment and he lost alot of fish. pretty sure you cant blame OA but i'm not jumping into this blind with liverock in the tank worth 1000 euro alone never mind the fish stocks.

Hi all,

Thanks to everyone for the great advice and in particular I want to give a big shout out to Dimitri from Fintastic Aquatics in Dun Laoghaire. When I went to him last week I had just lost three fish and could see that at least one more was on it's last legs. He listened patiently and was spot on with his advice. He introduced me to OA, suggested I install an Internal Jad SP-2300III submersible filter and re-install the TetraTec APS400 air pump I had taken out some months ago and the effect has been instant and amazing. The tank looks better than ever and the fish are really active and healthy looking.

Cheers to all, don't know what I'd do without ITFS and Fintastic Aquatics in Dun Laoghaire.

BTW here's a link to some photo's of my tank taken 6 months ago. It now looks much much better!!

www.irishfishkeepers.com/cms/component/o...mit,10/limitstart,10

Ben

One more thing. After installing OA and the air pump and removing the condensation trays I've noticed that the temperature in the tank has increased to 28c from what was a very stable 26.5c. I had expected the temperature to actually drop when the condensation trays were removed not the other way around. Is this a common side effect of altering the setup to OA? Is the rise in temerature due to the air pump introducing air which is a higher temperature than the water?

I guess I could have accidentally changed the setting on the heater when I was doing the water change the day I introduced the OA.

Any ideas?

Ben

Hi Ben,
Thank you for all of this.
the rise in temperature is probably related to the location of the air pump as you suggested.
If the pump is inside the hood for example,the accumulation of heat from the tank itself and
the light unit might be the explanation.
let us know anyway.
all the best.
Dimitri.

Dimitri,

The pump is actually located beneath the tank in one of the cupboards so there is no way heat from that is permiating back up into the tank. the cupboard is well aired and doesn't feel hot at all.

What temperature should I be aiming for in the tank? 26c?

Ben

Hi Ben,

Thanks for all of this:)

The temperature rise is probably due the location of the air ump as you suggested.
If the pump is on top of the tank and inside the hood,the accumulation of heat from the tank itself plus the lights could be the explanation.
You could try different locations for the air pump.
Let us know how you get on anyway.

all the best,
Dimitri

sorry about repetition...

yes 26C should be good,28C is a bit high for these guys(not lethal or anything..)
your pump is beneath....i suggest you check your heater's settings and maybe try confirm temperature with different thermometer?
?

platty252 wrote:

I am surprised your post was removed from the PFK site. After all if i remember correctly there first pod cast (or what ever you want to call it) was about organic aqua.
I agree it is very good and would recommend it to anyone starting a tank. Even if it was only to get them past the cycle stage.

Trimax have you tried it on very soft very acidic water? I mean a really low ph. If so what did you think?

Yeah funny enough it was the same dude who banned me as who did the podcast! I have tried organic on tanks from a PH of 6.5 up to 8.5. I havent noticed any difference between Organics effectiveness on Soft or Hard water, Both work equally well. I found temperature to have a greater effect on Organic aqua, But as long as you remember to increase airflow to warmer tanks then its fine.

paulbohs wrote:

Good discussion. Any marine tank keepers using OA? I only have spoken to 1 guy using OA for marines on a new fish shipment and he lost alot of fish. pretty sure you cant blame OA but i'm not jumping into this blind with liverock in the tank worth 1000 euro alone never mind the fish stocks.

Usually when someone losses fish in a system newly converted to OA its because they did not do a 90 - 100% water change first, and they probably neglected to clean all filter media, remove the plastic tubes from the wet dry filter(If any) and other such shortcuts.

I understand the reluctance to try a new thing on an expensive system. This is natural. If its any comfort I have helped many a customer with no fishkeeping experience whatsoever , set up a marine organic system. I Used to do it in 3 stages. The customer would buy and set up the tank,equipment and salt first. Day 2 they would buy and add the Rock and sand, day 3 would be fish and OA. Coral I usually suggested be added a week or so later so they could get a proper introduction to keeping it that they would remember. It is possible to do this quicker but When it comes to beginners I didnt want to give them too much info in one day as they would be likely to make a mistake. So over 3 visits to me they would get bitsize chunks of information so as to minimize the chances of error.and I have never had a complaint with marine OA customers. The only complaints I ever had was with freshwater systems,People not leaving a the top open at nigh, turning off the airpump at night and once when someone set up a tank and put the airpump IN the tank!

Hi John,

The only reason this thread has started up again is because after Dimitri suggested OA to me last week I came home and started searching for validation from actual users here on ITFS. Dimitri struck me as a decent guy and I always trust my instict but I also have a healthy amount of sceptisism (the paranoid survive and all that) so I wanted some 3rd party confirmation that this stuff does what it says on the tin as it is in contrast with the traditional biological process I first learned about when I strted the tank. I have no other agenda here whatsoever, no connection to OA or the re-sellers or even to Fintastic Aquatics other than as a happy customer. The fact that the thread re-started close to the upcoming show is co-incidence but I'm guessing your own (healthy) scpetisism will continue to doubt that!!

When it comes to 'proving' how it works I agree it would be great if we could all understand that but I can understand why the owners can't divulge that informaiton. By definition the product is organic so doesn't contain anything they can patent and therefore protect from being copied. They have found a mixture of naturally occuring ingredients and a particular blend of these ingredients which works. If they were to divulge the mix or much more informaiton about it than they already have the product would be reverse engineered by one of the big companies who could then wipe the floor with OA due to the fact they have bigger marketing budgets, better established branding, better established global distribution channels etc. OA would be remembered as the people who discovered it but thats all.

I'm not at all scientifically qualified but I do have some knowledge of Intelectual Property and I'm involved day to day in the sale of going concern businesses. If OA had been able to patent their product then I have no doubt one of the big international brands would have bought them out or tried to. The fact that they don't have any intellectual property (other than the OA brand name) makes a sale extremly difficult becuase in order to consumate a deal the formula would have to be revealed to the potential buyer and independently tested to prove it works BEFORE the sale was completed as that is primarily what the buyer would be paying for. OA would (rightly) be very nervous about this as there are many examples of one competitor making what appears to be a genuine offer to buy another and for the deal to be agreed in principle subject to due diligence but after due diligence (the process of validating the financial, legal and intelectual property of the company being acquired) the business which made the original offer pulls out at which point they have a complete and intimate knowledge of the target companies customers, payroll, pricing, intellectual property etc. Of course this process is 'protected' by confidentaility agreements but in reality there is little OA could do to prevent the unscrupulus 'buyer' from launching a similar product down the road and claiming to have independently researched and developed it, particularly as what they OA would be trying to protect isn't actually 'protected' intellectual property.

On the flip side the danger for one of the big boys if they were to buy OA is that they pay €xm for it but becuase they aren't getting a protected patented product they run the risk of BenEadir Inc launching an identical product the day after the sale is completed called SuperAqua and then how valuable is their investment in OA? Heads would roll.

Think of Coca Cola. Is their formula or the mix of ingredients fully dosclosed? or even KFC? All we know is we like the products and that the ingredients are safe to consume so we're happy to drink Coke and eat Chicken to our hearts content. The value of those businesses is in their brand, economies of scale, management capability and wide market penetration. OA appears to be just a small business with limited funding and (based on the picture I saw and the tone of their website) owners who are passionate about the product, not necessarily out to become a market dominant brand.

That's my 2C worth anyway.

I will attempt to explain how it works here! Basically in an Organic system there are 3 seperate treatments that when added to water work together to filtrate the water, and maintain good fish health.

In a normal traditional system there are many species of bacteria which occur in a healthy filter, put simply each of these species works on Nitrifying Ammonia. Some species work on Ammonia directly, others on Nitrite, the Nitrified Ammonium. All the bacterial species in question need oxygen to work and a media to live on, this is usually a sponge or ceramic object. This media needs to have water constantly passed through it in order to function. The end result either way is Nitrate, which leaves the tank several ways, The main way in modern fishkeeping is through dilution of the water with fresh water. Plants also use Nitrates as fertiliser. Nitrates will also evaporate slowly through gas exchange on the surface of the water provided the water tension is broken by a current.

The last method is the key to Organic aquas funcionality.

I'm sure marine keepers are familure with the idea behind a Protein Skimmer and how it works.
It is comparable to how OA works.

In an Organic system there exists a different group of bacteria, which lives in the water itself. It is free floating and feeds off the waste directly, converting it to Nitrate. One of the additives in Organic aqua slightly alters the consistancy of the water, causing the water to interact with oxygen particles differently. In a marine protein skimmer salts in the water also changes the consistancy and do something similar. Nitrates bond to the oxygen particles in a marine protein skimmer, and are forced up and out of the water, into the foam which over flows into a collection box along with other waste particles. In an organic system, fresh or salt, Nitrates produced by this free bacteria are also forced up and out by Oxygen particles in greater amounts then in a normal system thanks to the OA general treatment which alters the consistancy as I said above. So via gas exchange at the surface of the water,Nitrates are lost at a much higher rate. this is why an airstone and ventilation are important in organic tanks.
The filter, be it internal or not merely acts to catch larger waste particles , ie it acts as a mechanical filter. It must be cleaned regularly because If Bacteria starts to build up in a traditional sense on the filter media then it will take food away from the OA and the OA Bacteria will die.

It is true that the bottles of bacteria people buy, ie stress zyme, do not actually contain any nitrafying bacteria, but rather a relative of the required groups which acts as a base for the correct species to evolve. As it is impossible to transport nitrafying bacteria without a constan flow of O2 and Ammoniums to keep it alive. OA is not that different in the science of things to traditional methods, it is merely more focused on the easiest aspect of nitrate removal, evaporation through gaseous exchange, And it contains natural chemicals which free the bacteria from their spongey prison.

Science has still not completely identified all the Nitrafying species which occur naturally as in truth there are thousands.

Unfortunatly the species names of the OA bacteria is not yet discovered either as far as I know. Which in truth is not much different to What science has ID'd in traditional filters either.
The Chinese did not know the species names of the bacteria which filtered there tanks 100's of years ago, nor did they have mechanicle pumps, but they did know that it works. If OA's owners were to coin a name for their bacteria, would it make you feel better? Is the fact that there is bacteria at work in an OA system not enough.