Bad advice

I was approached by a guy in work today for advice on a tank he set up 2 weeks ago .After asking him a few questions i was horrified by the answers i got .He bought the 2 ft tank from a well known reputable garden centre on the southside,and has now roughly 25 to 30 fish from all over the globe in situ !.The advice and help given to him being he's a total novice really annoyed me.The fish are dying everyday and the shops answer is to sell him more fish !. They have even sold him countless plants which naturally keep dying.my point is,a store giving you good advice by knowledgable staff will help you to appreciatate this fascinating hobby and long term you will return to make further purchases from them and not the fast buck .I gave this chap some proper advice after he asked me about putting a pirahna into it.Aaaaagh

I bet I could guess the shop in one go.
This place was lashed on the forum a while back.
Another member complained about the dead fish and he was told.
\"so what there only fish\" then the security guards were called to remove him.

The guy asked went to the shop after they had just recieved a new stock delivery and asked why there was so many dead fish in their tanks?.The answer he got was that it \"always happens when they add new deliveries\",absolutely disgraceful.

Right Anto You and me . Ill wear the trainers and bring along a white stick and shades You wear the balaclava and we will go over to that shop put them to the test and if they try to rob me we will turn the tables. AS for the security guard we can have a chat in her ear b4 We go in.

This type of thing gets my goat up
And youll find that these socalled pet shops haven't a clue what there on about.All they see is a sale pure profit or so they think.

Imagine that chap telling his mates \"I started to keep fish but I gave up they kept dieing on me worked out to expensive \"
His mates think sure thing I not going down that road.

Where as if the guy standing right beside his super aquarium (which we have all done ) telling his mates how good this is and his mates thinking how cool this is. hmmmm might start one of these up myself.

Its a simple buisness you look after the people and they will tell others.

Paul.

I can't help but say this, & I could well get in to trouble by saying it, but it shows how affected by it I am. It f'ing annoys the bloody s**t out of me the we these p***ing retalers couldn't give a rats derier (Valerie to correct spelling on that one)about the fish, the hobby or the end user. When will they ever get it into their thick, sawdust filled **nting skulls that this isn't the best way to do business. The succesfull shops in our country are proof positive that doing things the right bloody way works. All hail Fins N Things, Wackers, Fish Antics, Tropical World, Aquatic Village, Petshop Online, Seahorse Irl & Saltwater life (I could well have left a few out & I do apologize in my ignorance there). You guys deserve all the sales, customers & profits that these mountebanks manage to eek from the uneducated new hobbyists.

As I said in my other thread, something has to be done. The only problem is what & how?

The thing is I daren't say anything to my local hell hole or to a customer (even though I sooooo want to) just in case I have an emergency at anytime for a filter or heater that's failed.

There must be a way to name and shame these guys with out getting into legal trouble.
I have worked in retail all my life and if we or another shop sold an out of date product the consumer has the right to complain to the “area health authority”(AHA), and believe me they do. We have had visits from them regarding this and some shops have been closed down or had a hefty fine and some times the shop name put in the papers to further shame them.
I don’t know the full details of the law but surly if some one said “I was told this or that by joes bloggs shop” and it went wrong surly that person is only stating facts as to his personal experience with that shop. So long as they don’t F & Blind the shop.
This hobby needs a boost and these so called pet stores lfs or what ever they call themselves need to be kicked into touch. There are as stated the very few like wackers and others that are truly good but are labelled with the same bad brush because people have one bad experience with one shop and think they are all the same when they are far from it.

why dont we just have a sticky listing the good shops and maybe a review on them:dry:

Why dont we look at this in a totally new way and stay away from the name and shame route.

Why not approach these shops and ask them to put up your posters for your club and the forum that way any newbies will see that they can get advice easily. They dont necessarily have to join the club and they can log on here quietly and get the run down on how to set up and run a new tank without feeling silly or thinking they are asking sily questions.

The article that is posted by richardbunn on setting up and maintaining a tank is brilliant. It is put in plain english and is not too technical for a beginner at all. This way we have a chance to take the bad advice out of the hands of these shops and maybe save a few fish in the process. (ps its not an article its in teh news section but it should be an article)

In my experience if you kill someone with kindness it totally disarms them. So why not promote all the hard work and postiive action that has come from the forum and the clubs and get the best out of the situation and stop dwelling on the negative.

Nessa<br><br>Post edited by: goldy, at: 2007/08/06 15:06

I personally think myself by putting up posters it will associate the site with the shop making it look like the site recommends or supports it.
I also dont like the idea of naming and shaming without giving the shop a chance.Call me a softy now but I just dont think that by naming and shaming the shop is going to help the problem.The majority of the people who buy the fish there are quite new to fish keeping and inexperienced.I have been in the shop many times myself and overheard people asking questions and looking for alot of information on the fish to which they recieve poor or vague advice.
My solution there for is to educate the staff and then they can pass this information down to the customers.
Meaning a shop doesn't close down, more compition and hopefully another really good shop in the making.
I know this may sound easy in theory but it could be worth a try.Maybe it could be arranged that the staff come to one of the club meetings and we could have talks about the basics in fishkeeping.This is just my opinion though and I dont mean to disregard anyones ideas but I do think that we all agree something needs to be done.

Regards
Padraig<br><br>Post edited by: Tetra-Tetra, at: 2007/08/06 21:56

This place has been discussed several times over the last year and nothing good has been said about them. Garden centres should stick to gardening as they obviously have little interest in the welfare of their fish.

When i started keeping fish thats where i went. I always got good advice and found them very helpfull. Although i had already done allot of research and decided exactly what i wanted. I suppose it also helped that my granny knows the owner. About 6 months ago i stoped going there because i noticed that there was alot of new staff who did not seem to care as much as the old staff. (also its horrible to get to) But if you ever wanted good advice or anything you always had to wait for ages to talk to the more experienced people.
So insted of wasteing my time i started going to a small pet shop in windy arbour. the people there are very nice there stock is not the largest but its alway good quality. But if you want any decent advice you need to talk to the owner and not the young lads. o and they always get you anything in you want with a very fair price.

Anthony I seem to remember you giving every one on this forum a good dressing down for naming shops and shaming them with bad comments. I thought this one was well and truly dealt with and then I see the ADMINISTRATOR stirring it up. Have you lost your marbles now you are an old married man or wha:woohoo:

goldy wrote:

Anthony I seem to remember you giving every one on this forum a good dressing down for naming shops and shaming them with bad comments. I thought this one was well and truly dealt with and then I see the ADMINISTRATOR stirring it up. Have you lost your marbles now you are an old married man or wha:woohoo:

I found a few marbles outside my house...are they yours anthony?

i'm gonna have to get to the next meeting to put some faces on the names:)

I must be the only only with a decent memory.
The rules state that you can only put factual information about a shop on the forum.
I deleted what I wote on Platty252`s request.
Personally I would rather have left it but with all the s**t going on it probably was a good idea it.

I agree with Anthony. I don't see anything wrong with naming and shaming a place if you can back it up with facts and if possible pictures. I know some s***holes of shops that shouldn't be allowed to trade. If memory serves me right, Valerie once posted a picture about one place in Galway (?). I think this is perfectly acceptable and will not breach any libel laws. If forum members are willing to live with it I am quite prepared to take a trip around the LFSs here and take pictures of the bad places I am aware of. How many dead fish do you want to see or better put how many can you stand to see dead or disease ridden?<br><br>Post edited by: apistodiscus, at: 2007/08/08 13:00

If we decide to have a show again next year how can we possibly approach any shops for sponsorship or just to plain ol reach fish keepeers by putting up posters when we constantly hae to defend ourselves against all the bad press that goes on here. If I was in teh trade I would want nothing to do with this forum for that reason.

Lets be diplomatic about this and build on the successes and stop the BS

ps I might also mention that quite a few of teh bad mouthers were not available to help at the show this year this does mean that in the future the ones who did give their time are constantly apoligising for the others.

I have to say that I am slowly but surely getting a really big pain in my AAAAAAAA with it all. Some of us are constantly promoting the positive and good side of this hobby and trying tirelessly to improve the clubs (3 clubs now where there was only 1) while having to put up with the constant moaning and bitching of people who didnt even bother to make the trip.

If everyone wants this to fall flat on its face now well you are doing a really good job. Is it just the weather has you all depressed or are you all really typically Irish F...in begrudgers.

Make your choice and get on with for gods sake before there is nothing to get on with anymore

Nessa<br><br>Post edited by: goldy, at: 2007/08/08 19:45

I think it's best if we clarify the forum rules regarding mentioning \&quot;shortcomings\&quot; when it comes to LFS. At the moment it says:

We all want a high standard of fish keeping and we all hope that retailers maintain a high-standard. However, the ITFS does not want to get sued for slanderous comments about a retailer. If you wish to post about a specific retailer, do not mention their name and only refer to the retailer in the 3rd party. If you are posting negative comments about a retailer, ensure your comments are based on fact, no exaggerations

There are so few LFS in Ireland, it's pretty easy to work out which one is being referred to in a post even if the poster doesn't mention it by name. I think it's best that we avoid posting negative comments about shops on the forum. Most of us meet face to face which gives us plenty of opportunity to discuss the merits of various retailers which is far safer than writing it in a public forum.

We are all here because we love fish and fishkeeping. Seeing fish being mistreated angers us and it's only natural that you will want to make fellow fishkeepers aware. However, we do have to be mindful that there may be consequences for the forum owners and the ITFS by writing comments on the forum which is in the public domain.

As I said in an earlier post on another thread, it's pretty easy to determine the preferred LFS on the forum by all the positive comments that are posted regarding them (in fact they all sponsor the forum and clubs). It's also pretty easy to extrapulate who the not so popular ones are by the lack of positive comments.

Let's make the rules clear and move on.

Nessa.
I totally diasgree with you. The Sponsors here are making a
fortune by advertising here and offering their much appreciated
discounts. The forum has increased profits for all off these sponsors.

Second. This is not another arguementative post. It is very
interesting and is just constructive critisism. Your reply is the only one that seems to be starting up another arguement. You
might not have ment it that. In fact I know you didn`t but that
is the way it is coming accross. You are also having digs against people for not helping out at the show.
Not all the members here are members of the I.T.F.S or any of the clubs.Infact if yu rememeber most of the older members stayed away in disgust. They wanted nothing to do with the show.
I hope it is these you are attacking and not the members of the forum.

I hope this post stays on the straight and narrow and does
not escalate into another free for all.
Hopefully we have all learned from our mistakes and the B/S is gone for good. But aggressive constructive dabates(the beefheart was great)
will always be welcome:blink:
All forums have bad posts so to speak. Its the ones that deal with it in a professional manner that survive.<br><br>Post edited by: Anthony, at: 2007/08/09 04:40

Anthony,
I totally agree. Good LFSs have nothing to fear from the forum. They are getting praised here until it comes out of their backsides. I for one think that everybody would welcome the participation of more LFS owners on the the forum or in the clubs? I have one local dealer here who just didn't know any better. He inherited the shop from his old man and just carried on. At long last he is starting to listen to advice experienced fishkeepers give him. Of course I still have to listen to his moaning about profit margins, lack of space, lack of qualified staff, etc.I still feel the urge to choke him at times but at least he's willing to listen. I still wouldn't give him my approval that he's running a good LFS but he's making progress and compared to five years ago he's seriously on a steep upward curve. Incidentially he supplies plenty of LFSs around the country (apparantly some are very slow to pay up:whistle: )and compared to some of them he looks like the saviour of fishkeeping in Ireland.
I'm trying to get him on to the forum but so far with no success. I'll get I just have to keep on nagging until he finally logs on.
I am sure we all know LFS owners like that and should make the effort to get them involved. It is only in their own interest to see what fishkeepers think about their respective shops. The more they improve the more business they will attract. We are only a small band of enthusiasts but IMO it is time that we took our own fingers out and make ourselves heard.
@Nessa,
I don't quite see the relation between the show (which unfortunately I couldn't attend this year, promise to do better next year) and the general state of LFSs. The good ones were represented and did their bid to help out from what I gather. Glen sponsored you with an RO unit even though he didn't have his own page on this site yet. The good ones will always come through for you. For all I care the bad ones can go bust or improve but not carry on with their iresponsible carry on and bid for a quick buck.

Holger

Just my opinion on the matter:

If a shop is that bad why should we allow other people to buy sick or infected fish from that shop.

What use is their sponsorship (by the way no poor LFS sponsored us this year,only good* ones who care about the hobby) if there are no new fishkeepers to attend.

I think we are in danger of whoaring ourselves out for cash over standards.The last show wouldnt have happened without the generous sponsorship of LFS who cared.Obviously some others are business's and cant employ the best of staff and so standards drop a little (very understandable as long as they are improving) but some are ruthless faceless organisations who dont care about selling you a fish that will not only die itself but will infect the rest of your fish and they will die too.


*Possibly wrong on this one,but all the shops I know of were top LFS.

Sorry if I came across a bit strong but I just got a pain in the when this whole debate startd up again.

Heres to all teh people who did sponsor and continue to. Thanks

Erm,,,,im a new guy in here so maybe I should keep my mouth shut and say nothing,,,,,but I cant,,,I have this problem of opening my gob and saying things without referring to my brain,,,its something thats been happening since i was able to walk n talk,,,

Ive been reading this forum since Andy in Ashbourne told me about it and suggested I join in,,I am hoping to get as involved as I possibly can...
Ive had a pond 5 years and its ur ord average goldfish thats mostly taken up my attention,,,altho I have also peeked at tropicals, and, as they became more available , marines..
For several reasons I regularly travel all over ireland and any chance I get I call into shops to view their stock..
I walk away from each with varying opinions as to the layout, set up, displays and stock...and theres very few Id actually buy from,,,
There are a huge number of suppliers of all types of pets who dont do themselves any favors by the manner in which they keep their stock...Its sad and shameful..
Its also a case that in all walks of life we will find people who only care about their profit...

This forum is obviously concerned about fish.
How about we try to draft a list ALL suppliers in the country ...then, contact each one,,,advise them of this forum, telling them our aim is to promote fish as a hobby.
If we say that we are trying to compile a listing of GOOD suppliers, to bring to the the attention of our members,ask them if they would like to be included in the listing . Perhaps this might generate a different approach in their attitude and manner in which they keep their stock.
We would of course have to say that if they wanted to be included in the listing,,,there are guidelines that would have to be followed, such as healthy stock, no dyed fish etc etc.

Its only my suggestion, from someone who doesnt really know whats been happening in here, and who doesnt even kno what shop you're all even talkin about,,,unless its one Ive already mentioned in other postings ,,,so dont jump down my neck or shoot me..

Vince

I think that is an excellent idea.
We can then rate the shops with the ratings module I proposed.

sounds like a balanced idea vincent.

i think it was me who told andy about the forum...i'm sure others did as well:side:

i mentioned the idea of rating the shops to him last night and he'd give it a go.
anthony if your in you might talk to him a bit more about it

i was able to bring in some fish to him and do a swap..
why didnt i know about blue rams when i started fishkeeping all those months ago..beautiful fish.. i got a pair

koinonia wrote:

sounds like a balanced idea vincent.

i think it was me who told andy about the forum...i'm sure others did as well:side:

Too late.
He knew about the forum when his shop was a little over a week opened.