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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)
Hi,
John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.
I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.
With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.
I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.
If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.
I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.
I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.
Thank you
Darragh Sherwin
Wild caught or captive breed?
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21 Nov 2008 09:22 #1
by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods)
Mickey Wallace & Cath Woods
Hi Folks,
Just this morning i am reading another article on a species endangered by over fishing by our beloved hobby. Yet they are being breed.
So I offer the subject for discussion
1. should we only buy from captive breed
2. should Lfs mark which fish are captive breed
3. not purchase these species till stock re build
By the way here is the link
Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade
(Red lined torpedo barb)
www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1899
Just this morning i am reading another article on a species endangered by over fishing by our beloved hobby. Yet they are being breed.
So I offer the subject for discussion
1. should we only buy from captive breed
2. should Lfs mark which fish are captive breed
3. not purchase these species till stock re build
By the way here is the link
Puntius denisonii threatened by aquarium trade
(Red lined torpedo barb)
www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1899
Mickey Wallace & Cath Woods
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- derek (Derek Doyle)
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21 Nov 2008 22:21 #2
by derek (Derek Doyle)
30 tanks specialise in african cichlids, angelfish and various catfish
Replied by derek (Derek Doyle) on topic Re:Wild caught or captive breed?
interesting article mickey and well worth discussion. i will write something on this subject later and hopefully others will contribute their thoughts on this v. imoportant topic.
30 tanks specialise in african cichlids, angelfish and various catfish
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22 Nov 2008 00:25 #3
by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods)
Mickey Wallace & Cath Woods
Replied by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods) on topic Re:Wild caught or captive breed?
Hi Derek,
i agree it is very important both for hobbyist and trade there are already many bans on export of species we do not want to add to this list or those extinct in the wild.
Especially when alternatives are available. This is an example of were hobbyist and trade must work together.
I for one would not mind paying a little more for fish if that money was going to conservation projects but what i don't want is a tax that is not use for the correct purpose either.
But with out going that far by asking the question is this wild or captive breed stock will make a difference. And the last thing LFS want is paying wild stock prices for captive breed. Because wild stock prices are going to go up on the strength of reports like this which is not good for anyone.
Mickey
i agree it is very important both for hobbyist and trade there are already many bans on export of species we do not want to add to this list or those extinct in the wild.
Especially when alternatives are available. This is an example of were hobbyist and trade must work together.
I for one would not mind paying a little more for fish if that money was going to conservation projects but what i don't want is a tax that is not use for the correct purpose either.
But with out going that far by asking the question is this wild or captive breed stock will make a difference. And the last thing LFS want is paying wild stock prices for captive breed. Because wild stock prices are going to go up on the strength of reports like this which is not good for anyone.
Mickey
Mickey Wallace & Cath Woods
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- lampeye (lampeye)
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22 Nov 2008 02:09 - 22 Nov 2008 02:14 #4
by lampeye (lampeye)
lampeye
Replied by lampeye (lampeye) on topic Re:Wild caught or captive breed?
i didnt read the article mickey but my feelings are as follows:
1- If you are keeping fish without planning to breed than captive fish are a must, unless these have been so over bred that they have health issues or physically look crap compared to what they should look like)
2- if you are planning to breed fish as a small time hobby than again captive bred are again a must (see above and) for other reasons: no disease issues from importing, hardier from being brought up in captivity,easier to breed etc.
3- if you are a serious breeder with fish house and or have made an investment in your breeding setup that requires a return, want to produce quality fish and have sufficient experience to spot when a species has started to lose pedigree in captive breeding and needs a wild caught fish to strengthen blood lines, then of course wild caught fish are a must. Or in a species that is rare in the trade a breeder has to get wc fish.
(i fall between 1 and 2)
Part of the trouble is with the collectors who make their living collecting fish, now if they could also become (fiah)farmers....!
1- If you are keeping fish without planning to breed than captive fish are a must, unless these have been so over bred that they have health issues or physically look crap compared to what they should look like)
2- if you are planning to breed fish as a small time hobby than again captive bred are again a must (see above and) for other reasons: no disease issues from importing, hardier from being brought up in captivity,easier to breed etc.
3- if you are a serious breeder with fish house and or have made an investment in your breeding setup that requires a return, want to produce quality fish and have sufficient experience to spot when a species has started to lose pedigree in captive breeding and needs a wild caught fish to strengthen blood lines, then of course wild caught fish are a must. Or in a species that is rare in the trade a breeder has to get wc fish.
(i fall between 1 and 2)
Part of the trouble is with the collectors who make their living collecting fish, now if they could also become (fiah)farmers....!
lampeye
Last edit: 22 Nov 2008 02:14 by lampeye (lampeye).
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- serratus (Drew Latimer)
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22 Nov 2008 10:21 #5
by serratus (Drew Latimer)
Replied by serratus (Drew Latimer) on topic Re:Wild caught or captive breed?
We have them at the mo. W/C are alot cheaper but do not ship well and are hard to acclimatise.... we used to bring them in W/C from India but for the past year or so we started bringing them in captive bred from Indonesia, they are dearer but a far stronger fish, however im glad you brought this to my attention i was unaware!!!!
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- JohnH (John)
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22 Nov 2008 13:38 #6
by JohnH (John)
This very emotive subject has been raised several times before here.
I thought I would add a few observations, for what they're worth...
Your discussion point#2 seems to be the most relevant IMO, we should carefully consider the description "Captive Bred", there is "Captive Bred" and there is 'Captive Bred'...I think captive bred by enthusiasts from good (possibly wild) stock should be encouraged...especially by the LFS community, but that's a slightly different subject for another time, perhaps. However, 'Captive Bred' in overstocked ponds in the far east - where, it is claimed, Antibiotics are universally used to keep otherwise unhealthy fish alive for long enough to reach hobbyists tanks - by which time the medication's effects are well on the wane - is most definitely to be discouraged in my view. It's small wonder that Fish diseases are rapidly becoming immune to A/Bs...and, of course, we are the ones who get the blame for the over use of Antibiotics! I asked at my local Vet's if Metrodiazamide (or whatever the right spelling is) or any other A/Bs could be purchased very recently and was looked at and treated almost as though I was asking to buy Class A drugs!!!
They are used with abandon in the Fish Farms in the Far East, not by us hobbyists here in the West!!!
So, I think, most certainly, Fish Production is to be encouraged, but not altogether at the expense of Wild Caught Fish. There are Indiginous people in the countries of Fish origins who entirely depend on catching Fish as a source of income...unfortunately the people who actually buy the fish from them aren't always the most considerate towards the fish...but not all - there are some very conscientious exporters, some of whom are either European/North Americans who do treat the fish with the true respect they deserve.
Sadly, as with everything in life - greed often takes over and that can be one reason why over-fishing takes place...
John
Location:
N. Tipp
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.
ITFS member.
It's a long way to Tipperary.
Replied by JohnH (John) on topic Re:Wild caught or captive breed?
So I offer the subject for discussion
1. should we only buy from captive breed
2. should Lfs mark which fish are captive breed
3. not purchase these species till stock re build
This very emotive subject has been raised several times before here.
I thought I would add a few observations, for what they're worth...
Your discussion point#2 seems to be the most relevant IMO, we should carefully consider the description "Captive Bred", there is "Captive Bred" and there is 'Captive Bred'...I think captive bred by enthusiasts from good (possibly wild) stock should be encouraged...especially by the LFS community, but that's a slightly different subject for another time, perhaps. However, 'Captive Bred' in overstocked ponds in the far east - where, it is claimed, Antibiotics are universally used to keep otherwise unhealthy fish alive for long enough to reach hobbyists tanks - by which time the medication's effects are well on the wane - is most definitely to be discouraged in my view. It's small wonder that Fish diseases are rapidly becoming immune to A/Bs...and, of course, we are the ones who get the blame for the over use of Antibiotics! I asked at my local Vet's if Metrodiazamide (or whatever the right spelling is) or any other A/Bs could be purchased very recently and was looked at and treated almost as though I was asking to buy Class A drugs!!!
They are used with abandon in the Fish Farms in the Far East, not by us hobbyists here in the West!!!
So, I think, most certainly, Fish Production is to be encouraged, but not altogether at the expense of Wild Caught Fish. There are Indiginous people in the countries of Fish origins who entirely depend on catching Fish as a source of income...unfortunately the people who actually buy the fish from them aren't always the most considerate towards the fish...but not all - there are some very conscientious exporters, some of whom are either European/North Americans who do treat the fish with the true respect they deserve.
Sadly, as with everything in life - greed often takes over and that can be one reason why over-fishing takes place...
John
Location:
N. Tipp
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.
ITFS member.
It's a long way to Tipperary.
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- sheag35 (Seamus Gillespie)
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23 Nov 2008 02:12 #7
by sheag35 (Seamus Gillespie)
Fishkeeping the Only way to get wet and wild
currently 25 tanks, and breeding is the aim of everything i keep
location:Limerick
Replied by sheag35 (Seamus Gillespie) on topic Re:Wild caught or captive breed?
So I offer the subject for discussion
1. should we only buy from captive breed
2. should Lfs mark which fish are captive breed
3. not purchase these species till stock re build
what a good topic, heres my 2 cent
1. yes ideally we should buy captive bred at least until stock in the wild replenish enough to be farmed again. But this also has a disadvantage in the fact that if we only use captive bred the chances of inherited weakness will ensue, so use of wild caught with these could strengthen the genetic line
2. yes i feel all fish w/c or c/b should be marked for two reasons a those who want to go for c/b only should be able to identify these fish readily and secondly as w/c fish as generally more sensitive to water conditions the fishkeeper should be aware of this before purchasing a fish which requires more specialised conditions
3. i feel on this point the aquarist could be of benefit to conservation of these species by a programme of releasing c/b fish back into the wild to help strengthen wild populations and increase wild breeding stocks, so there is a yes and no aspect to this point, yes we should do all we can to prevent these wild stocks depleteing but we could also be their greatest allies in providing the means to acheive this.. if critically endangered species are offered for sale well a lfs should not sell or stock them unless it is to a breeder who has a proven track record maybe even a license to keep / breed these fish with the aims of re-introduction into the wild
ok, now i'm off my soap box:cheer:
Seamus;)
1. should we only buy from captive breed
2. should Lfs mark which fish are captive breed
3. not purchase these species till stock re build
what a good topic, heres my 2 cent
1. yes ideally we should buy captive bred at least until stock in the wild replenish enough to be farmed again. But this also has a disadvantage in the fact that if we only use captive bred the chances of inherited weakness will ensue, so use of wild caught with these could strengthen the genetic line
2. yes i feel all fish w/c or c/b should be marked for two reasons a those who want to go for c/b only should be able to identify these fish readily and secondly as w/c fish as generally more sensitive to water conditions the fishkeeper should be aware of this before purchasing a fish which requires more specialised conditions
3. i feel on this point the aquarist could be of benefit to conservation of these species by a programme of releasing c/b fish back into the wild to help strengthen wild populations and increase wild breeding stocks, so there is a yes and no aspect to this point, yes we should do all we can to prevent these wild stocks depleteing but we could also be their greatest allies in providing the means to acheive this.. if critically endangered species are offered for sale well a lfs should not sell or stock them unless it is to a breeder who has a proven track record maybe even a license to keep / breed these fish with the aims of re-introduction into the wild
ok, now i'm off my soap box:cheer:
Seamus;)
Fishkeeping the Only way to get wet and wild
currently 25 tanks, and breeding is the aim of everything i keep
location:Limerick
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- Daragh_Owens (Daragh Owens)
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23 Nov 2008 20:14 #8
by Daragh_Owens (Daragh Owens)
Replied by Daragh_Owens (Daragh Owens) on topic Re:Wild caught or captive breed?
It would be nice for shops to label fish as WC or CB, but as some have difficulty labelling the tanks with the correct name, that might be a bit much to hope for.
Several valid points have been made in favour and against. There are lots of peoples whos livelihoods depends on catching fish for the aquarium trade and a blanket ban could have terrible consequences for them.
Where a species is in danger of becoming extinct in its natural habitat, efforts should be made to beed the fish commercially to take the pressure off WC specimens. Reintroduction of captive bred stock must be handled with care and professionally done, it would be worse to introduce new diseases or parasites etc to a natural habitat than to leave the remaining wild stock alone. Introduction of any captive bred or non native specimens, whether fish or animal has a long history of disasters amog the few success stories.
Daragh
Several valid points have been made in favour and against. There are lots of peoples whos livelihoods depends on catching fish for the aquarium trade and a blanket ban could have terrible consequences for them.
Where a species is in danger of becoming extinct in its natural habitat, efforts should be made to beed the fish commercially to take the pressure off WC specimens. Reintroduction of captive bred stock must be handled with care and professionally done, it would be worse to introduce new diseases or parasites etc to a natural habitat than to leave the remaining wild stock alone. Introduction of any captive bred or non native specimens, whether fish or animal has a long history of disasters amog the few success stories.
Daragh
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