Under the Leaf Litter!

Ok I dont really know where to post this thread but it will surely house fish at some point. Moderators feel free to move the topic to a more suitable area if your not entirely happy with its current location.






Introduction.
...Spawned from an idea I have been harbouring for quite some time now, I have decided I would like to try my hand at building and stocking a Paludarium, which would eventually become home to both Poisonous Dart-frogs (Dendrobatidae) & my beloved Killifish. Building a natural looking environment to accommodate both natural occurring land and aquatic species and all that entails would surely lead to a stunning visual display, once complete.
It is envisaged that I will use my original wood cabinet as a stand for the Paludarium and a new custom made glass tank would have to be constructed to remain within the constraints of its footprint. I'm planning on building a 625 x 312 x 610 (LWH) tank. complete with land and water segments.
I wish to keep this as natural as possible (modelled on a South American Rainforest biotope)
I hope to include some hard landscaping to include, tree roots, branches and exotic planting.
I will need to do a lot of research on this project surrounding the frogs themselves and also the flora, something that I'm sure I'll enjoy and probably to the complete annoyance of Ian on this forum.
Please follow as I proceed with this venture, join in with your comments and suggestions as I make this journey into the semi unknown.


Potential Paludarium...minus the new, taller tank

...After much consultation and dialogue with many frog enthusiasts, it seems that the most idiot proof PDF species (within reason) is the Yellow-banded Poison Frog ( Dendrobates leucomelas )...see pic below



Whilst not the most colourful species in the world but it has become apparent that they present less demands upon their owners and may be more suited to the environment I have in mind. Another worrying factor to all this is the fact that PDF's do not swim too well so provisions will have to be made on that score to minimise accidents. I haven't given this aspect much thought to date but it needs to be addressed as I intend to keep a few gallons of water within the eventual set-up.

...I have taken the liberty of ordering three small books pertaining to the topic in hand to educate myself a little further on Dartfrog husbandry. Whilst small in stature, I hope these little books will offer up the basic care strategies that need to be employed to look after these little amphibians sucessfully.

Poison Dart Frogs (Complete Herp Care Series) by Amanda Sihler

Natural Terrariums (Complete Herp Care Series) by Philip Purser

Retile Keeper's Guide: Poison Dart Frog (Reptile keeper's guides) by R.D. Bartlett
The Tank Really Matters.
...I've managed to get the initial glass cut. Five pieces of 6mm plate were broke out to make a tank of the dimensions 625mm x 312mm x 610mm (pics to follow). I will drill all the drainage holes for the land mass and misting/fogging heads once I have decided on how I want the final layout to look.

The Equipment.
Substrates.
Landscape & Decor.
Balancing the System.
The Inhabitants.
As the Paludarium build progresses I suppose the eventual inhabitants should not be overlooked. Along with a group of Rivulus xiphidius in the stream section. I will be keeping a small group of Poisonous Dartfrogs (PDF's). The species of choice due to it's more forgiving nature and beginner friendly demeanour will be Dendrobates leucomelas or Banded Dart Frog. They need a fair amout of land mass for a group so I should only be able to keep three individuals (1male : 2females) at the most. There is a substantial amount of data available from various internet sources on this little beauty. Here follows a small, concise descriptive index on the species in question.
I)...Location & History:
II)...Description & Behaviour:
III)...Difficulty:
IV)...General Care:
V)...Breeding & Tadpole Care:

Foods and Feeding.
Resources.

*Please note, This is likely to be a lengthy process, it sure as hell aint gonna happen overnight, I will keep all the journal together in this top thread/post. (Space permitting) and will announce updates below as new and exciting developments are made.
I look forward to having you on-board for the ride.
Cue Ian....I'm depending on your help here buddy
Regards
BigC

Im very interested to see how this turns out?! I was thinking of doing something similar but with a chameleon living above a brackish set-up that would have archers, scats and some other brackish species?!

Consider me subscribed.

Cannot wait to see this happen, I've been wanting to do this myself since seeing some MAHOOSIVE setups over in England! How will you overcome the fact that Poison Dart Frogs cannot swim and can very easily drown in Paladaria?

interesting project colin. look forward to reading of your progress.
love the way you illustrate each article.

Fairplay Colin i love these projects on the forum for everyone to look at, learn from and get ideas as wel. Lookin forward to this one, loads of research, loads of pics and loads of comments. An absolute gem of a project. Jesus i may lie down, the blood is goin straight to me head again.....Nice one.......

I have always liked frogs and like many others will be following this tread.

Just a suggestion to stop the PDF's drowning, you could try dwarf lilly pads or large floating plants. I'm sure the killies would also appreciate them.

ok i know jack on these as my question might point out, but if one of these excreted poison and it fell in the water would it not kill the fish?

The drowning issue is a big concern that I am totally aware of. Inside the tank will be another glass tray which will be shaped to form the landmass. I dont want it hitting the front of the tank therefore spoiling the aesthetics of the whole set-up. I am toying with the idea of using egg crate and using floating planting to plant through this in some way. its all in the planning.

From speaking with Ian and reading books on the topic, PDF's acquire their toxicity from the food they eat in their natural habitat. Since we cannot provide this aspect of their diet then the frogs are essentially detoxified.

Regards
C

As far as i know (which is not a lot) they are not poisonous when kept in captivity for a while.
I think the poison comes from a food source in the wild.

Someone with experience with these should be able to give better info.

EDIT: I'm just to slow at typing

does the same go for Bufo alvarius?

Hi Colin
yet another pushing the subscribe button. I have been interested in this idea since i visited the Berlin aquarium and zoo. I love birds, fish and reptiles but getting the space to have all well this is the way to go so i will be following your progress and will be asking to many questions

Mickey

The idea for this thread is not only to catalogue the successes but also to portray the failures and how they can be addressed. Essentially to show everyone via the journal a natural progression, taking each problem topic in turn and working to maximise it's potential. Constructive criticism is to be welcomed and I encourage anyone to sling in your twopenith worth as we move along. I've approached Ian for assistance and he has assured me that he will chip in from time to time to minimise any mistakes that are not initially apparent to the novice PDF enthusiast. (moi)
Regards
C

Another great source of advice is Cees de Snoo and his wife. Cees owns Pets and Ponds in Dungarven, Co. Waterford. This couple are extremely knowledgeable on the subject of poison dart frog keeping and also the setting up of terreria for them. Although they don't seem to be fans of keeping PDFs in a paludarium.
I had a great chat with them in the shop a few weeks ago and got some very interesting advice as I have had an on-off relationship with D. auratus over the past 18 months or so! They're difficult buggers to keep alive!
You probably aren't going to be in that neck of the woods soon but if you need any advice Cees may reply to a PM.

Good to see you started the thread puddlefish.

A few points I noted from replies:

Drowning.....I had been chatting to puddlefish on this and gave indicators on how to prevent drowning. Really, the PDFs should not have direct access to the bulk part of the aquarium water. they can drown within a centimeter of water.....and males will often kill other males by drowning them.

In effect, the PDFs would be in a different tank only separated by a mesh system or dividers.

There also needs to be consideration of what fish are used.....you couldn't house a brackish tank where the frogs would have direct access to any of the water as they would probably not tolerate the salt.

Chlorine.....fish will tolerate chlorine in the water better than frogs.

Toxins......captive bred will not have any toxins (well, not for nearly all PDFs.....but there are a few Mantellas who might be able to produce their own). Wild Caught will eventually lose their toxins, but it can be a slow process.

I would not, however, advise keeping wild caught PDFs as a starter....and certainly if D. tinc. azureus is wild caught or an offspring of wild-caught then it is illegally caught.

Not all PDFs actually have the lethal toxicity in the wild that legend would have many believe......
BUT, PDFs contain some of the most lethal toxins known to science.
Those PDFs that have lethal toxins of severe medical significance are truely dangerous. One of them is probably the most toxic substance that I can think of found in any animal.

Just my first jottings to comment on concerns shared by people.

Best of luck with the project.

ian

Didnt realise you started a thread C.Brilliant,I will be following it and keep you updated on how my viv is shaping up.I had originally planned to have a large pond with some apisto`s in it,even saw a small write up on it in a pfk mag but after talkin to people like Ian it seems far to difficult and not worth the risk of loosin these expensive frogs.

A few notes on technical difficulties to be considered:

For anyone who was at the IFTS show on Sunday, you could probably see some of the problems that I had consider when displaying mixed species in a relatively small tank (2foot by 1 by 1 foot) on a hot day:

a) potential aggression….but that was not a problem for a temp display as territories had not been set-out and I was on hand
b) Small vivariums cause problems in the difficulties of adding UV lamps…..I used soluble calcium and vitamin D3 supplements for temp housing in small vivs to get over this.
c) Overheating on a hot day……it was hot on Sunday, and getting very close to a dangerous level. I installed a fan system and had the external nebuliser ready.
d) Rapid cooling on a cold day (but not at the fish show  )
e) Stagnation……..you need to have a fan, but then that needs to be safely housed and also not allow the humidity to drop too low. Low humidity will kill very rapidly.
f) These guys are fantastic escape artists…..but death will be rapid if they did escape and I couldn’t find them.

For most part in PDF keeping, it is getting the viv right in the first place. There are many technical problems to overcome…..and you often find dilemmas such as ‘how do I have plenty of air movement yet keep humidity up high’?

The other dilemma is how to deliver the UVB and UVA light that dart frogs require to greater of lesser extents depending on species, age, mating etc without cooking the frogs?

A mercury vapour lamp will produce an incredible amount of heat, and would have to somewhere between 3 to 4 feet (minimum) above the highest place that the frogs may bask. That is a problem……..you can’t mount it inside a viv unless the viv is pretty massive; and then you need to stop the frog climbing near it. If you mount it outside the viv, then you’d need a mesh top…..but hey, that would compromise the humidity.

The mercury vapour UVB/UVA lamps are the ideal for PDFs….but with the mechanical problems involved, they are best not used (or maybe the occasional zap through a mesh top could be fine.)

So, that leaves us with 3rd best (the sun being 1st, mercury vapour 2nd)…UVB fluorescent tubes of low output (2% or 5%). These will be fine, and are cool in operation. The Compact UV lamps should not be used as many of the lamps manufactured pre-this year produced UVC (non-terrestrial UV), and most compacts have a poor UVA output.

Another alternative that works very well (but not ideal) is to use something like low concentration of Zolcal (a highly soluble calcium and vitamin D3 mix) in the water baths from time to time (but not at every change). Then calcium dusting or gut-loaded food is also required.

I’ve heard nonsense were people say PDFs don’t need UV light…..not true, but if UV light is not given, then something else needs to be given instead to get healthy frogs that may even breed to produce viable long-live (10, 15, 20 years) offspring without spindle leg.

In a good clean environment, PDFs will thrive with very little difficulties if their basic requirements are met.
There are a few species that I would not recommend people start with, but then those species are not likely to be readily available in Ireland anyway.

And…...a final word…....for now at least…..support captive bred specimens; don’t buy wild caught especially if that encourages illegal capture and export of certain species.

ian

as far as i'm aware the current thinking on the poison comes from a small species of fire ant that they eat.they synthesize it buy an as yet unknown way. I think. love pdf's was a nice set up at the show.

Gavin wrote:

as far as i'm aware the current thinking on the poison comes from a small species of fire ant that they eat.they synthesize it buy an as yet unknown way. I think. love pdf's was a nice set up at the show.

Hi Gav, it is more likely to be primarily from mites but ants could also be cited within.

The variety of alkaloid toxins is pretty large. In fact so large, that the different alkaloid toxins are classed into over 20 different chemical groups.

So, that may indicate that it is multiple sources exist for the toxins; and different species may have different dietary sources.

In some PDFs, however, the frog itself will take a relatively low toxicity compound and convert it into something of significant toxicity. Oophage pumilio is one such dart frog that can do that.

But here is a very sad fact.....many thousands of dart frog were killed in the search for how they made the toxins.....yet if someone had cottoned on the dietary source, then those frogs need not have been killed.

My primary qualification is as a medical toxicologist/pharmacologist...........so these things fascinate me.

I, however, refrain from spewing my dry thoughts of my academic passion on digital format (for now anyway)

ian

How is the setup goin puddlefish?Just got two new azureus.They are settlin in well in small viv while I finish their future home.

To resolve the issue of any terrestrial organism falling into the reservoir and drowning, subsequently fouling the Water you can place a clear plastic, rigid Mesh over the Water area and allow plant material grow up through it as you would to protect Children from falling into a Pond.

Kev.

Must have been on that island when this thread was started...consider me subscribed.

Jay

Any updates on the setup?