Kevs sponge filter suggestion (moved)

stretnik wrote:

Having recently met up with and spoken to, a member of the forum , he told me that he uses Sponges and Pipes and Air, so why do we use expensively crafted Externals?? why do we not all just use Sponges and Air, they would certainly be cheaper.

Are they not popular due to Aesthetics?

Kev.

if not done, this could be a good article if someone took their time to do a step by step with pictures. a question i would have is how do you determine wat size sponge and how much air would be needed per gallon. i would have no problem using the likes of this, it's the waters health that counts. another question that might need answering is would the use of air have any effect on Co2 in a planted tank?

If I were to look back at what might be called some of my most successful days of fish keeping, and also bearing in mind that I did a lot of work on designing fancy pants filtration systems more than 25 years ago,
I might ask………did moving to fancy power filtration bring benefits to me?

Most of my successes in breeding and keeping massive freshwater and marine tanks (eg public aquarium sized tanks) were with using internal sponge and air-powered undergravel filtration.

Noise and awkwardness were, however, a disadvantage then and now.

I still have some tanks that use just air-powered filtration (either sponge or the micro-mec replacement cartridges used with an air line instead of being placed in the JBL power filter).

When we start venturing into the quasi-scientific world of determining flow-rates, then we are teetering towards the extremes of urban myths and then forth into a realms of pseudo-science with guess-work being the ‘proof’.

ian

Hi Ian,

Thanks fo getting in on this post, the person I spoke to, too has used and is currently using Sponge filtration in his Tanks, Tropheus etc, would you mind going a bit deeper into the detail of setting these up, I am afraid that this type of filtration has been sidelined due to the huge investments being made by the Large corporations to the detriment of Fishkeeping, I used to use the plastic corner Box with Floss and air stones and they worked, I don't like ug filtration for many reasons although when properly maintained they are wonderful and cheap. Some of the LFS use the Sponge filters in their stock Tanks to great effect.

I would also like to say the Forum is what it is because of the Members and I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who takes the time to reply to Posts, with info whether it's anecdotal or otherwise.

Thanks.

Kev.

I think you will find that it's surface agitation that causes removal of CO2 and not the Bubbles.

Kev.

stretnik wrote:

I think you will find that it's surface agitation that causes removal of CO2 and not the Bubbles.

Kev.

im thinking the power of the airpump will determine how much flow would go through the filter, so bigger tank = bigger airpump, bigger airpump = more agitation. would i be correct in my assumtions. i dont use Co2 but i thought it might be beneficial to those that do. these filters could easily be skied behind a bit of bogwood. also would the sponge mass be equivilant to the sponge in an external or would you go slightly higher?

Cheers Kev...some topics tempt me more than others.

I’m one of the many people on the forum who sit astride the olde-fashioned world and the new-world of fish keeping in being around for so long.
And to that I also sit astride the ‘scientific’ vs ‘hobby’ side: sometimes the 2 do not see eye-to-eye for reasons I do not understand why.
Boy, it can be difficult at times.

I also agree that what makes the forum great is that we get a good variety of people contribute to posts as in a nice community atmosphere. I’m on a UK forum…and my goodness it is full of angst all of the time.

Anyway…

Flow rate is important, but sometimes it is sometimes taken as being ‘more is better’ (which is not true) OR the anti-side saying ‘less is better’ (which, again, is not true).
There needs to be a balance.

If the flow rate is too fast then there may be less time where bacterial-substrate-bound water (eg oxygenated water with nitrites and a carbon source) is in contact with bacteria for long enough for it to be of any use (a bit like driving through a drive take at 100mph).

On the otherhand, depending up the design of the filter, a slow flow rate may allow too much of build up of the bacterial layer. The inner layer of which could be depleted of oxygen and therefore rendered either dead or useless. Now, what happens here is that the outer active layer could end up being too weakly bound to a filter media (because there is a dead muck layer below) and could be easily sloughed off the filter media.
Certain bacteria require a decent binding to the media to be effective.

Hence, a balance is needed….and that balance will depend up the filter type or design.
In practice, and with good filter maintenance, sloughing of layers may be minimal….and even having too fast a gush will quite rapidly lead to enough clogging to slow the water down. Ie theory and practice start to clash a bit here.

An overhead trickle filter introduces some special benefits….and it can be air-pump powered.

I lost all of my old bought sponge filters when moving house.
So I decided to save some money by buying…JBL micro-mec refill cartridges for their small internal power filters and using the cartridges as filters.
You could use the sponge ones or even the peat cartridges (as I have done in some tanks).

So…buy these www.jbl.de/en/aquatics-freshwater-produc...004/internal-filters

They cost about 5 euro…and that includes a nice cartridge and the material inside (good value for the bargain hunters).

I plug the bottom with some filter wool. And then stick an air-stone down the inside and connect to air-pump. You could stick just the air-line down inside but it is awkward to make it stay in-place (but tube clamps may help).

Now, as I like to save money, I tend to take some of the micro-mec or peat pellets out of the each filter cartridge and add them to empty plant pots you get with aquatic plants.
These are then fitted into the various overhead trickle filter systems I have on some tanks to give that added extra bit of surface area.

For undegravel filtration, having an air-pump operated reverse-flow system does a good job….but it requires a bit more thought on the design of the up-lift tube as you are using an air-pump to pump a column of water down into the undergravel filter (you don’t want the bubbles to go down).

Also with the reverse flow air-pump powered UG filtration you could go one-further and install a trickle filter system above the down-take pipes…and that would also mean that you’d be minimising pumping air under the UG filter.

These are very good and I used them when I kept Marines (and installed them in a public aquarium as well).

I’d have to draw some diagrams to show what that all looks like.

But….cheap filters and filter wool do not end there.
I have loads of cricket boxes (nice oblong see-though boxes that crickets come in).
These filled with filter wool and few extra holes made, then somehow stuck just above or just under the water level with a feed of water into them make excellent filters and water polishers. I even have some of these inserted onto spray bars….very efficient and dirt cheap.

Ian

would this be the basis of one? a lenght of pipe i'm thinking 12inches of half inch pipe (depending on depth of tank, the top of mine would be 12inch below the surface). about 1inch from the bottom cut out 2 3inch long slits on either side. put a 4 to 5inch sponge with a diameter of 8inches on the bottom. drill a hole 1inch from the top of the pipe and insert an airline pushing it down to the bottom. is this ok? and should the base be sealed tight or can it be just sat tight in the sponge. also should i have the pipe near the same depth as the water or would the 12inches of pipe be enough (or too much?)

Legendary post as always Ian. I was looking at building my own sponge filter for a fry tank and was having visions of cutting PVC pipes and drilling holes (as per other DIY instructions on the web) but going to give the JBL one a go instead. Seems a lot less effort!

I googled 'cricket boxes' to see what shape you meant and the image results are not quite what I expected Lol

PompeyBill wrote:

Legendary post as always Ian. I was looking at building my own sponge filter for a fry tank and was having visions of cutting PVC pipes and drilling holes (as per other DIY instructions on the web) but going to give the JBL one a go instead. Seems a lot less effort!

I googled 'cricket boxes' to see what shape you meant and the image results are not quite what I expected Lol

I was intrigued, so I googled the same as you. yep, not exactly what I had in mind either.
But...who knows, anything has a use in a fish tank

@Dar....if you drill loads of largish holes in the big hose (but don't use garden hose as it may contain toxic compounds). Then fit a sponge over that.
You'd need to seal the bottom....but a bit of filter wool will do....eventually it will glog and become a more useful seal.

ian
ian

heres one i did ,one small internal filter and this keeps my 450l tank spotless

www.irishfishkeepers.com/index.php/fforu...ing-bed-filter#90462

igmillichip wrote:

@Dar....if you drill loads of largish holes in the big hose

i was thinking, if i cut 2big slits on either side, leaving only 3mm of pipe on each side holding it together. would this not be better than holes?

@Dar….. I’d have thought drilling holes is easier than doing a slit.

think woodwork classess….would you have rather made a Dowel Rod joint using an electric drill OR made a more complex Mortise and Tenon joint with a chisel and a saw !!

Depends on whether you’d want to go into rocket science in deciding which is best.
I’d go for holes anyway as they are easier to make.

Holes will also be stronger and will resist rips.

We could, of course, go into fluid mechanics, drag coefficients, deposition coefficients, ever changing diffraction angles, unknown eddy currents…..!!! but that’s all physics and you’d spend more time working that out (only to find your calculation are wrong) than it would take to make both and run them for a month.

@Sheag….very nice little filter. It is good to see that there are a few people into the home-made (not everyone who makes home-made is an eccentric)

ian

Ian
would the larger slots not give more flow? now i read your balance theory but for larger tanks surely you would need a good flow and these drilled holes might suit a 20-30g but lets say 100g, in that case would one just need larger pipe, larger drilled holes, larger sponge and more air?

@JohnH.....being careful of ambiguosly named boxes and being PC.....maybe some of the local shops in you area has some spare insect boxes (just make sure that there has not been a feeder melt-down else the ammonia will knock you out).
Boxes that have had Morio worms are the best as you rarely get a melt down of dead insects in the bottom.

@dar....make the holes bigger and more numerous.
If you have just a limited number of slits or holes then you increase the chance of blockages cutting out flow all together.
Slits are more likely to clog up than holes (if we think area for area).....the corners will be a seed for deposits upon which more will rapidly deposit (but that does depend upon the width of the slit...and would also depend on the diameter of a hole)

ian

I wouldn't know what is in Tipperary......"it's a long way" from where I live.

The other good thing about the cricket boxes (whoops...Insect boxes) is that a little bit of boiling water will help you easily model them into a less-than-square shapes if needed.

Now I forget what I was going to say
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Larger holes v smaller holes

Larger holes will let smaller media/debris pass tru that a smaller hole may clog up with.
Smaller and more numerous holes would spread the volume of water better than larger less numerous holes which would concentrate the water to specific area.

without calculating it, it would be best to start with less numerous holes, then increase them as required. This would reduce the problem of more holes than water or dead areas or too high flow all as mentioned by Ian already.

@ Ian : Your posts sound even better (or is it authentic?) since I met you at the auction

Its great to have a brain to pick and one that spills out information too

Do you mean you didn't believe my posts before meeting me at the auction?

ian

I can hear you as I read them now
As you would sound.
Your true voice and not the false one applied while reading previously

@dar: smaller holes and more of them. this gives an even flow through the media. if you had big slits in the pipe, the water would take the easiest path thru the sponge and not efficiently use all the media, and as this "easiest route" gets blocked, it'll be rendered useless as it will not allow flow thru it at all and so on and so forth

slow-mo sharapova is a gift from god

sorry got distracted by the tennis...