Are my fish communicating with me???

Hi all,

My 450L Cichlid tank has been ticking along fine with 10-14 day 150L water changes with every third one being a comprehensive water filter clean/change also and constant water temperateure around 26C - 26.5C. I have +/-30 Malawi Cichlids of mixed variety and 3-4 from Lake Tanganyikan + 2 rusty plecos who seem content to stay buried under the rocks all the time. I haven't seen them in the open for months but can see them hiding away. I guess they only come out at night?

Anyway, all seemed well with no alarming water readings and the yellow labs (I think that's what they are) breeding every few weks and without any intervention at all 3 of the fry so far have managed to survive by hiding in the rocks until they were big enough to venture out by themselves.

Now, the reason for my post. I did a 150L water change last Sunday the 18th and (my 4 year old daughter) today noticed that a lot of the fish were at one end of the tank and facing up at a 45 degree angle with their mouths skimming the top of the water as though they were trying to suck in air or drink just the very top of the water. It really did look a little weird so I checked the temp and it was fine at 26C. I had over fed them a little a couple of hours earlier (a bit heavy handed with the TetraCichlid Sticks) but nothing major. There were +/-15 sticks left floating after they had had their fill so I was going to skip feeding them tomorrow so to encourage them to eat the rest of todays feed and compensate a little for todays over feed.

I decided to do a water check and found the folowing

Nitrate 40 (that's what I'm really worried about)
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
PH 7.4 (had consistently been 7.8 so a bit worried about the drop)

I recently switched from feeding them an exclusive daily diet of New Life Spectrum formula 1mm sinking pellets to a combination of Hikari Cichlid Excel mini pellets (fed twice a day in small quantities via a EHEIM digital feeder and an egg cup full of TetraCichlid sticks every 2-3 days.

The high nitrate reading and low PH (relative to the previously consistent 7.8) have me worried and I'm away on a business trip from Tuesay until next Sunday so if something radical needs doing I need to do it now before I go otherwise I'll have to ask my other half to have a go and she wouldn't be too pleased!!

Can the Cichlid guru's here (and perhaps water quality guru's) give me your thoughts on this? I thought there might be a dead fish stuck under a rock or something but can't find one and anyway would that not spike the Ammonia first?

Could the recent (2-3 weeks ago) change in diet be a factor?

From what I've read on other posts I'll probably return to New Life Spectrum food once this batch of Hikari pelets and TetraCichlid sticks are finished anyway.

All thoughts and suggestions much appreciated.

Here's a pic of the tank in question



Regards,

Ben

to raise the ph dissolve a tablespoon of breadsoda in tank water and add to the tank.
phil.

Ben, tetra cichlid sticks have a high protein level and would not be suitable for some of your fish. So new life spectrum is probably best for the fish you have, as they are a mixture of herbivore and omnivore/carnivore.
The fish hanging at the surface gasping for oxygen indicates pollution of some sort, and if you inadvertently overfeed, it is best to remove uneaten food by net. Malawis are hardy fish and should recover ok as long as causes are tackled.
My advice is.

Do another water change and add 1 tbl spoon breadsoda to higher ph to or near previous level. Although ph 7.4 is just about acceptable for africans, ph drops are a sign of detiorating conditions.

Remove any old carbon from filter. When saturated, carbon leaches harmful compounds into water.

Stop feeding immediately for at least three days as overfeeding is usually the main cause of any tank problem. If going away leave fish without feeding (as johnh). This will allow tank filter to recover its balance.

If you can get some polyfilter add it to tank. Polyfilter is great for removing toxins/pollution quickly.

hope this helps.

Thanks for the response lads, much appreciated. I knew I was taking on a challenge starting off my fish keeping with such a big tank and so many fish but I got an expert to set it up and he, along with many menbers here, mentored me for the first few months. 10 months into it now and still love it. Have had a few 'floaties' (4 or 5) in total but no major drama really which I take as a good sign.

Will do another 150L water change tonight. Fish seem content this morning with none of them "sucking for air"!!

Will get a poly filter and replace the two carbon filters in my External Tetra 1200 filter as they haven't been changed for over 6 months. I wash them out in tank water every 6 weeks or so when I do a filter clean and unless they are torn or looking very shabby I put them back in. Is that the right sort of timeframe for cleaning the filter and also, how often should the carbon filters be changed rather than washed in tank water and returned to the tank? Given there is two carbon filters I guess the prudent thing to do is change one now and the other the next time I do a filter clean rather than change both at the same time?

Has anyone any comments on the behaviour of my rusty plecos? Is it normal? Can I expect to see more of them in open water as they grow? I'm sure it's quite intimidating being in a tank with 30+ fairly active Cichlids.

Regards,

Ben

Hi Ben,

I suspect that the possible root of your problems is the food you have been feeding but also probably the filtration on your tank.

The 400L tank with 30+ malawi fish will place a lot of strain on a filter. I have a 500+L tanganyikan tank with about the same perameters as yours but I filter mine with a tetratec 2400. I took a look at the tetratec 1200 technical specs and it appears that it's limit for filtration is 500L tanks which your is. However your stocking levels are probably more apt for a larger tank (I'm aware of the need for overstocking malawis for agression levels and the visual spectacle etc). I suspect that this problem may get worse as the fish become adults and the strain on the filter increases.

There are a number of tweaks you could do to your tank to improve the long term stability.

1) Increase the filtration by adding a second external filter (I'd get a second hand one off Ebay)
2) Decrease the amount you feed the fish and also switch to NLS as a preference (the safest food ime)
3) Increase the clean-up crew, add a couple of ancystrus that will clean up excess food if feeding is an issue
4) Buffer your water, there are a number of ways to do this but I'd suggest using crushed coral sand as a substrate. Alternatively fill a pair of tights with the crushed coral sand to a depth of about 15mm and place it into one of the filter baskets. In this way the water will buffer naturally and act as a bacterial filter as well. By buffering the water gently you'll avoid a possible ph crash which is as dangerous as a Nitrate spike!
5) Decrease the number of fish in the tank and keep all the rest as it is currently.
6) Active Carbon is only useful/reactive for about 4 weeks after which time it becomes full of toxins and actually can be dangerous to the water. Carbon can become so saturated that it begings to release some of the toxins it has absorbed back into the water. Personally I only use Carbon for a 1 week period after treating my tanks or to increase water clarity. I think the carbon filters you are talking about are the sponge tops on each of the baskets in a tetratec which holds the filter media beneath. There should be only one layer of carbon, the rest are sponges that can be rinsed as you mentioned and in the way you mentioned.
www.aquatics-online.co.uk/bigpics/tetratecEXfilters.htm
7) The substrate bed you have is very deep so the excess food may be getting trapped beneath the substrate causing the sand to be come anerobic which will reduce your pH and cause the Nitrate levels to spike. You could reduce the depth of the substrate and when doing a water change make a point of giving the substrate a good poking to release any gaseous build up.

As far as your immediate problem goes:
1) Water change every day of about 100L+ before you go.
2) Don't feed them for the moment, they will survive the week. I agree with the others, ask your wife to feed them mid week a little if you are feeling guilty.
3) You are probably right about the rustys, they will be much more active at night.

By the way do you have algae issues at all? With increased nitrate and the proximity of the tank to natural light you may get an increase in algae, a sure sign that your nitrate levels are getting excessive.

And lastly..... that's a hell of a tank, it looks lovely.

Hi Zebedee,

GREAT suggestions there, thanks a ton.

Looks like I've got a bit of work to do to get everything back in sync again.

Rather than add a second filter do you think trading in the 1200 and buying a 2400 is a viable option? I see the 2400 is £148 on the UK site. I don't really want to lash out that sort of money unless I have to so getting something for the less than year old 1200 would be important. Also, I'm not much of a DIY'er so if I could add the 2400 body to the existing 1200 hose feed (they are both 16mm so I'm hoping the "heads" are the same) then it would be a straightforward install. If I start messing around trying to install something new I could make a complete bags of the whole thing. Trust me I'm a disaster on the DIY front!!

Will definetly switch to New Life Spectrum ASAP.

What are ancystrus? Is that a general term for Pleco's or are you recommending a specific breed? (Forgive the complete ignorance here) This Wiki article shows 59 species so I want to be sure I'm asking for the right thing!! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancistrus

You are spot on about the carbon. I was referring to the sponges as carbon when in fact there hasn't been a carbon filter medium in the filter for months. Do you think I should use one from time to time of just buffer the water using the coral sand to 15mm in a pair of tights method instead? (the link you posted was very helpful, thanks)

I understand what you're saying about the substrate being deep. I always give it a good 'hoover' when doing water changes but perhaps I need to do more and/or take out some of the coral to reduce the overall depth as that would reduce the 'bed' in which excess food etc can get trapped.

The are on a no food diet for a few days from today. Will leave instructions for a feed on Thursday (1/4 egg cup full) and set about making some changes you and others have recommended when I get back next Monday.

You are spot on also about the algae issue. I give the tank a really good clean every 2 weeks but within days you can see a skin of algae beginning to build up again. Any suggestions on dealing with that???

Thanks again Zebadee, much appreciated.

Ben

ben
i would strongly advise against using ancistris (south american catfish as are rustys)) in your tank which is set up for rift valley cichlids. the addition of these catfish as cleaners is a growing and worrying trend and although these hardy cats adapt somewhat, it is no picnic for them. some species such as nimbochromis and pseudotropheus (esp. when large) will harass these cats and attack them on sight, biting at fins and eyes. (thats why they hide) the best catfish for a set up like yours are the african synodontis or bagrids, which are beligerent and tough enough to compete on level terms with the cichlids (and come from similar hard water).
i think your tank looks very well and the coral sand bed is fine. the cichlids if fed correctly will root in the sand and prevent excess gases from building up. also when you syphon the sand with gravel cleaner this will releases gas build up safely. the only area gases and anaerobic problems could occur is beneath the rock structure but even this can be rectified with a thorough clean up (moving rockwork etc.) yearly.
based on your picture the tank is not overstocked for these species as of now, but as they grow it may become a bit busy.
certainly there can never be too much filtration and another or bigger filter would help as your fish grow, but no amount of filtration will cope with overfeeding.
the only real problems u have are being caused by overfeeding.

You are spot on about the carbon. I was referring to the sponges as carbon when in fact there hasn't been a carbon filter medium in the filter for months. Do you think I should use one from time to time of just buffer the water using the coral sand to 15mm in a pair of tights method instead? (the link you posted was very helpful, thanks)

Using carbon periodically can def help with water clarity and it's also useful for removing medication from the water after you are finished dosing. But you need to be VERY careful about how long you leave the carbon in as it WILL leach back in the very toxins it removes if the media becomes saturated (normally in a few weeks).

Using crushed coral is an excellent way to buffer the water and stop PH crashing. I live in an area where the water is both soft and low KH and I was having big problems with PH crash. I solved this by adding coral and it has helped stabilize things.

You are spot on also about the algae issue. I give the tank a really good clean every 2 weeks but within days you can see a skin of algae beginning to build up again. Any suggestions on dealing with that???

A combination of light and high nitrate levels are the main contributors to algae. Cut down on the light and get your nitrate levels down; you can buy nitrate removing/reducing media for your external filter and Juwel have a green sponge for their internal filters. Of course water changes is the easiest way to achieve lower nitrate levels but you appear to be doing plenty of water changes so it looks like you need some extra help here to get the nitrate levels down. 40ppm is not disastrous but I would not let it get any higher and I would be looking to get it down in the 10-15ppm region.

Thanks Derek and TM, more good advice.

I guess I won't need to add any ancistris if I switch back to NLS food and cut back to the right quantity.

The rest of the problems should be sorted by increasing the amount of filtration and being a bit more pro active with how I manage the filter i.e. using it to buffer etc.

Looks like I've a big to-do list for when I get back.

Thanks all.

I guess I won't need to add any ancistris if I switch back to NLS food and cut back to the right quantity.

Over feeding is the single biggest problem to keeping top notch water quality. We all like to see our fish feeding well but it's so easy to overfeed them and we literally are contributing to their demise.

The rest of the problems should be sorted by increasing the amount of filtration and being a bit more pro active with how I manage the filter i.e. using it to buffer etc.

The great thing about todays modern external filters is that they provide multiple media bays and therefore huge capacity for the inclusion of varied media. It makes things so much easier as you can introduce/take away specialized media needed for a particular problem/situation without affecting the other 'bread & butter' media and therefore not affect the biological capacity of your filter.

i would strongly advise against using ancistris (south american catfish as are rustys)) in your tank which is set up for rift valley cichlids. the addition of these catfish as cleaners is a growing and worrying trend and although these hardy cats adapt somewhat, it is no picnic for them. some species such as nimbochromis and pseudotropheus (esp. when large) will harass these cats and attack them on sight, biting at fins and eyes. (thats why they hide) the best catfish for a set up like yours are the african synodontis or bagrids, which are beligerent and tough enough to compete on level terms with the cichlids (and come from similar hard water).

Derek is correct, ancistrus prefer soft water however the majority of these fish have been reared in captivity and as such are adjusted to higher pH levels than are found in their natural habitat. I disagree that their use as cleaners is necessarily detrimental if they clean up residual food and their diet is suplemented with algae wafers, preferrably added to your tank after the lights have gone out to allow them to forage. I have had ancistrus in my african tanks as long as I have had fish with no discernable negative effects to the point of having them breed. But each to their own.

Again Derek is correct that some species of Rift Lake cichlids are agressive towards catfish, in much the same way they are towards synodontis although I will agree that the synodontis are a more they are a robust fish and will handle the rough and tumble of 'Malawis' seeing as they are an endemic Rift Lake species.

i think your tank looks very well and the coral sand bed is fine. the cichlids if fed correctly will root in the sand and prevent excess gases from building up. also when you syphon the sand with gravel cleaner this will releases gas build up safely. the only area gases and anaerobic problems could occur is beneath the rock structure but even this can be rectified with a thorough clean up (moving rockwork etc.)

I agree your tank looks excellent. I believe however the discussion was about overfeeding in the first instance so your cichlids have not been feeding correctly leading to a potential situation where anerobic conditions could occurr in your substrate. I would guess by looking at your tank that there is a wooden rim that hides the bottom of the glass adding a few more centimetres to the hight of the tank and consequently the volume and depth of the substrate? I still reckon that your substrate is too deep, however regular deep bed cleaning will alleviate the problem no doubt. I'm not sure I could say with absolute confidence that there is no way anerobic conditions have taken place in this instance or will do in the future.

based on your picture the tank is not overstocked for these species as of now, but as they grow it may become a bit busy.
certainly there can never be too much filtration and another or bigger filter would help as your fish grow

My comments were based on the technical data supplied by the manufacturer indicating that the ideal filtration capacity for this filter was about 500L. When keeping Malawis there is a view that overfiltration is a benefit but perhaps that view is no longer held to be true?

certainly there can never be too much filtration and another or bigger filter would help as your fish grow, but no amount of filtration will cope with overfeeding

I can't disagree with tha t;)


ON the filter front there are two schools of thought, two medium filters are better than one big one in the event of mechanical failure but that costs more. In the case of a tetratec personally I'd go for getting a second 1200. The 2400 is a beast and is a bit noisy, the piping is also significantly bigger than the 1200.

I HAVE RE READ THIS POST AND ALL OF THE REPLYS, AND THE CONCLUSION I'VE REACHED IS THAT EVERY REPLY CONTAINS GOOD AND IMPORTANT ADVICE, AND I DO NOT DISAGREE IN PRINCIPLE WITH ANY OF THE COMMENTS OTHER THAN THE ADDITION OF ANCISTRIS TO A RIFT TANK. HARD AND BITTER EXPERIENCE HAS TAUGHT ME THE FOLLY OF KEEPING S.A. CATFISH WITH ADULT AFRICAN CICHLIDS.
THE POINT I AM TRYING TO DRIVE HOME IS THAT THE PROBLEM RATHER THAN THE SYMPTONS MUST BE FULLY APPRECIATED. THE PRIMARY PROBLEM, AS IS ALMOST ALWAYS THE CASE, IS OVERFEEDING.
THE SYMPTONS SUCH AS; FISH HANGING, LOW PH, AMMONIA OR NITRITE SPIKES, HIGH NITRATES LEADING TO EXCESSIVE ALGAE ETC. DISEASE AND ULTIMATELY FISH DEATHS ARE ALL BEING INITIATED BY WRONG FOOD AND ESP. TOO MUCH FOOD. (AS STATED BY BEN IN HIS ORIGINAL POST).
THE SOLUTIONS SUCH AS EXTRA FILTRATION, REDUCING SUBSTRATE DEPTH, REDUCING FISH NUMBERS, ADDING CLEANER FISH AND EVEN THE USE OF THE MIRACLE LIKE POLYFILTER ARE ALL WORTH CONSIDERATION.
BUT IT IS IMPORTANT THAT BEN AND OTHERS IN A SIMILAR SITUATION DO NOT LOSE FOCUS ON THE PRIMARY ISSUE, WHICH UNDOUBTEDLY IS; "INCORRECT FOOD AND OVERFEEDING IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF ALL OF THE ABOVE SYMPTONS."
I RECALL SPEAKING TO A FISHKEEPING LEGEND (NO, NOT YOU SEAN:laugh: ) WHO SAID THE BEST BOOK FOR BEGINNER FISHKEEPERS WOULD HAVE IN LARGE PRINT ON THE 1ST PAGE DO NOT OVERFEED AND ON THE 2ND. PAGE DO NOT OVERFEED AND THE SAME SENTIMENT REPEATED ON EVERY PAGE.
ime 99 % OF ALL FISHKEEPING PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY OVERFEEDING.

ANYWAY ITS BEEN A GOOD LIVELY DISCUSSION FULL OF INTERESTING POINTS AND I HAVE ENJOYED FOLLOWING THIS THREAD.

BEST OF LUCK WITH YOUR TANK AND FISH BEN.

typed with caps locked in error and cant rectify.

Thanks again lads, much appreciate the expert and friendly advice.

Fish are in great form this evening although very jumpy with the expectation of being fed everything someone gets close to the tank.

They'll be jumpy for another couple of days!!

Regards to all,

Ben

They'll be jumpy for another couple of days!!

And they will be the better for it.

Every time I approach my Oscar tank they start shaking their heads and the mouths start flapping looking for food. It's very hard to resist them but I know how much food per day to give them and I stick to it. Consequently the water is pristine and the fish are thriving (apart from fighting with each other all the time but thats another story).