mixing african cichlids

although this subject has often been discussed it is worth returning to as its the single biggest problem for budding malawi cichlid keepers.
if you get the mix of species right a malawi tank is one of the easiest and most enjoyable set ups of all.
tougher mbuna tanks should exclude all hap species, lab. careleus, iodotropeus sprengerae and pseud. acei, as these species are not able to compete with the larger more vigourous types.
most mbuna are pure herbivores and should be kept on a mainly vegetarian diet.
most haps are omnivore/carnivore and do well on a mixed diet.
tank size is very important when considering which species to keep.
so in general we could consider the following in minimum tank size of 300 litres. (big four footer)
1. haps such as aulonacara, copidochromis, protomelas, moori, ahli and the softer mbuna such as careleus, rustys and acei. the victorian haps can also be housed with this group. (these are the more peaceful types and only need a small amount of rockwork and plants or wood can be added.)
2. the tougher and larger mbuna such as cobalts, zebras, melanochromis and labeotropheus. (lots of rockwork and veggie diet, plants will be shredded.)
3. the tough but small mbuna such as afra, most labs, salosi and demasoni. (again plenty of rockwork and veg diet.) at a pinch some of the first group can be added to this set up if tank is fairly large.
none of the above guidelines are relevant with juvenile fish, which can be mixed with whatever but as they grow problems will increase and fish will suffer and die.
hoping to hear others thoughts on this.

Hi Derek,
this is timely for me, as I'm in the process of setting up some of these tanks. I was thinking of having Haps/peacocks separated from a dedicated mbuna tank, but mixing them with careleus & victorians would suit me.

Is there a conflict in feeding the "softer" mbuna and haps in the same tank? i.e. omnivore/carnivores on a mixed diet in with algae eating mbuna and the legendary malawi bloat?

Thanks,

Jim

Hi Derek,

Great topic. I would tend to agree with what you've said above. In my experience, adding fish when they are all juviniles gives you a better chance of success. Adding adult fish to an already established tank is asking for trouble and is very hit and miss in terms of success.

Unfortunately, most of us tend to learn the hard way when it comes to this. I added two juvinile N. venustus to my established tank about a year ago. They were mixed with mostly Mbuna including Cobalts and Greshakis. They were fine for around six months, but being fast growers, they quickly reached the size of the Greshakis and Cobalts and started to get noticed. Unfortuately, I lost both of them in a very short space of time.

On the other hand, I have a 7" P. milomo in with them and as he's bigger, he dosn't get any hassle from them.

There are some mbuna that are only suitable for a large tank (400l plus) with other large robust Africans. I would definitely put Cobalts and Greshakis in this group. They are fine when juviniles, but they grow into very robust fish and seem to prefer swimming through other fish rather than around them.

I currently have two N. livingstonii in the tank that are still juviniles (seems I didn't learn the first time). I'm concerned that they may go the same way as the venustus. They're still small so the mbuna are not concerned with them. However, that will most likely change when they get bigger. I may move them to another tank and let them grow out until they're big enough to deal with anything the mbuna throw at them.

With regards to diet; I don't worry too much about mixing pescivores and herbivores. Newer foods like New Life Spectrum is suitable for both and I have fish with different dietary requirements thriving in the same tank.

It's nice to see this topic being discussed again, we're seeing a slow but steady resurgence in interest in these types of fish after a long hiatus in popularity.There's nothing quite as pretty, in freshwater at any rate, as a well thought out malawi tank.The main problem these days is getting quality fish that look right both in body shape and colour, way to many hybrids and mishapen fish.wilds of course are the answer to this but are still crazy money.getting the mix just right is tricky. Best to stick to species specific tanks and biotopes for your cues.

PM'D you Gav.

jim, as ken says the advent of foods such as new life spectrum allows the mixing of fish with different diets to some extent. in any case careleus are carnivores, and acei and sprengerae are not strict vegetarians. the smallish cynotilapia species are carnivore/omnivore and can be kept with any of the three groups without too much trouble.
it is the strict herbivores which are usually the toughest, most aggressive and teritorial, with stronger jaws and rasping teeth. in the lakes they have to fight for every bite and live in the crowded upper levels. most of these fish were once called pseudotropheus which means "like tropheus" in reference to their similarity to the already known and very robust tanganyikan tropheus.

ken. the livingstoni may fare better than the venustius as they keep a lower profile.

gavin. i agree that it is getting very dificult to get good quality malawis but hopefully that situation will improve.

there is a variation in behavior with victorian cichlids. i have three species each with a different diet. moluscivores have a strong bite and are tough, herbivores are more territorial and the carnivore/omnivores are more sociable.

Thanks for this Derek. When I first decided to get into this game I researched the hell out of African Cichlids, Mbuna in particular. Then, when I finally took the plunge and got my first tank it was a small 125ltr community setup to get to know the basics and work up to keeping a nice big Mbuna setup. Long story short, things didnt work out that way and I never did get around to keeping them but its definately on the cards. So, hopefully someday soon I will, and these insights will no doubt be put to good use. After reading your posts, I found myself checking out clips of Mbuna setups on the web and spending hours reading over the posters tank and equipment specs, stocklists and experiences with these amazing fish. It was setups like this that got me interested in the hobby in the first place, so again, thanks and I hope to get the chance to pick your brains on this if and when I do get around to keeping them.

Jay

absolutely jay. research is the key to success in any venture. there is so much advice available nowadays through books, magazines and the internet that if you choose the correct sources life will be made a lot easier.
having said that i always feel that most of the really valuable help and advice i received through the years has been first hand from other fishkeepers. that to me is the real value of forums such as this one.
malawi cichlid keeping when done right is really very easy and makes for spectacular viewing. its the nearest thing to marines but without the problems or expense. also like marine fish they are seldom shy and can become hand tame at feeding time.

to include other fish types in this topic, most species discus, angels, barbs, L numbers,synodontis etc. all exhibit increased aggression as they mature. so tank size can be a limiting factor as to which species we keep. it is a fact that juvenile fish of all species will live happily together even in small tanks.
so when buying fish we should consider how they will get on together as they reach adulhood.

I know this is an old thread but In going to inject a bit of life into it anyway. Ive sold off my marine and planted setups in preparation for a prolonged trip abroad but the other half wanted a tank in the living room that she and my brother (who is also a fishkeeper) can look after while Im away. Im going to do an african setup and Im leaning towards mbuna. The tank I got for this project is a 350ltr Clearseal with an FX5 canister filter doing the work.
I have done a fair amount of research on the mbuna and I came up with a shortlist of what I think would look and work well together. Im thinking mabey 10x Labidochromis caeruleus, 8x Maylandia estherae and 12x Pseudotropheus demasoni. Im a little unsure about the demasoni though after reading a few horror stories about total wipeouts and keepers being left with only one hyper dominant fish no matter how many they originally stocked. Also, I they seem to be one of the more difficult mbuna to keep and this setup needs to be as hassle free as possible as I wont be looking after it personally. So, if they are a no go, I was thinking Pseudotropheus socolofi but have heard that good specimens of these are hard to come by.
My tap water is hard and maintains a ph of about 7.5 without buffering so I think it will be a fairly handy setup for my brother to maintain in my absence.
So what do you folks think? Any input at all is much appreciated. Cheers,

Jay

demasoni would be a hassle, esp if you'r not there to keep the peace. the other two are ok and you could add acei or afra or similar. hap moori are very adaptable and would also mix well with most of the smaller mbuna.

Cheers Derek, you have me thinking about those blue dolphins now. How many of them do you think I could stock with the others or would I need to rethink the numbers?

Jay

thanks derek for bringing up this topic again as i keep most of the fish that you name above and even though its only a short piece that you wrote on this there is so much information in it and i always pick up on something that i should be doing .it gives a great set of instructions for a great tank esp for breeding .theres always so much to be learned from these topics cheers .ciaran

Viperbot wrote:

Cheers Derek, you have me thinking about those blue dolphins now. How many of them do you think I could stock with the others or would I need to rethink the numbers?

Jay

you could start with 6 or so at 2 inch and eventually aim for a trio in 350 L, or go for an adult trio.
moori ime are the only medium sized hap that can easily cope with being kept long term with both the busier mbuna and the quieter ones. they seem to be ignored and immune from attack from the feisty mbuna.
this could be because in nature they hang about with very much larger foraging cichlids and pick up the scraps from their table. so they are used to keeping their heads down under the radar and avoiding confrontation.

ciaranm wrote:

thanks derek for bringing up this topic again as i keep most of the fish that you name above and even though its only a short piece that you wrote on this there is so much information in it and i always pick up on something that i should be doing .it gives a great set of instructions for a great tank esp for breeding .theres always so much to be learned from these topics cheers .ciaran

hi ciaran.
i agree that discussions such as this is the best way for us all to learn from others experiences.
when i posted this topic i was hoping to get more comments on personal experiences so we could have a good active discussion and debate.
the guidelines are only rough and there are many exceptions and fish that hav'nt read the rules and operate their own agenda