fat / bloated fish

hello ... i jus noticed one of my fish is looked seriously fat or bloated its the only one in the tank like this what causes this .... any help is much appreciated

cheers colly

Could be the dreaded "Malawi Bloat". Check out this link

www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/malawi_bloat.php

Thaanks christy... i think it may be that hopefully i can get him back to proper health seems unlikely tho

What method are you going to have a go at to get him back?

If the kidney or other internal organs aren't damaged, then there is a good chance of success.

Octozin (waterlife product) is good.
What about food and water parameters?


ian

In my experience, once the fish is bloated, it's too late as internal organ damage has been sustained. If you're lucky enough to catch it at the early stages when they stop eating or when you see white stringy poo, you have a better chance of success.

I haven't had any success with the standard medications. Metrodinazole is the only treatment that I find effective. However, it's hard to get your hands on it in Ireland as it's by vet prescription only unless you can find another source.

Agree with kens post i think it may be to late for you man i had a problem of bloat with 2 of my fish (malawi) like a uneducated fool back in the day i fed them meaty pellets any way i tried a few comon meds nothing worked both fish ended up dead! it was a cruel learning curve but hey iv never had it scince

Have to agree with Ken & Paul, I think the chances of recovery are poor at best. The best cure seems to be prevention.

Most fish that I have done an autopsy on with 'bloat' have had extensive kidney damage.
(Fortunately, I've never had bloat in any rift valley cichlid myself.)

The problem with 'bloat' is that the causes and the secondary problems are killers.

Octozin and other similar anti-bacterial agents are important in a tank with suspected bloat.
And, octozin, as opposed to many other anti-bacterial drugs has a second edge in working against intestinal parasites that may potentiate the problem.

However, of prime importance is water quality applicable to the particular fish. For malawi and tanganyikans the water should have a high alkalinity....and one which is replenished with the proper redox balance.

Then of equal, but different, importance is diet. Poor diet may potentiate the increase in intestinal infection...and that will then go on to cause internal organ damage.

So, even though I would not like to make a definition on the cause of bloat, I think that action against all possible causes and secondary problems should be taken.

There is always a case for mis-diagnosis of bloat from a written description.

Hopefully, your other fish do not succumb to any ill-health.

ian

Ian has made a very good point, correct diet and water chemistry will help avoid bloat. However, I think stress is also a cause.

Unfortunately, Malawi tanks have dominant and subordinate fish. The subordinate fish have a tough stressful life which can lead to a multitude of health problems.

If you keep Malawis, it helps to have more than one tank so you can move around fish that are losing out in terms of dominance.

Otherwise, you will see problems like bloat and skinny disease which I believe is closely related.

KenS wrote:

Ian has made a very good point, correct diet and water chemistry will help avoid bloat. However, I think stress is also a cause.

Unfortunately, Malawi tanks have dominant and subordinate fish. The subordinate fish have a tough stressful life which can lead to a multitude of health problems.

If you keep Malawis, it helps to have more than one tank so you can move around fish that are losing out in terms of dominance.

Otherwise, you will see problems like bloat and skinny disease which I believe is closely related.

Yep. In an holistic reply on anything 'fish', stress should always be an underlying concern.

Stress.....is the atropine of fish: the ability to cut the chords of life.

And it, itself, will cause major kidney damage because of the biochemical nature of stress.....and kidney damage will cause chemical stress......its a downhill spiral.
We see that in so many animals (it's a major problem with Chameleons...and it can kill several years later).

Stress is not just a psychological thing...it is physical/chemical damage.

I've never really classed 'bloat' as a strange malady that just magically happens to come along.
I no longer keep tanganyikans or malawi cichlids, but nearly all were wild caught (even the frontosa from the depths....my goodness and they were expensive).....many people blamed the problem on wild-caught fish, but I never experienced any problems personally.
An intestinal infection is often blamed....now that might be true, but it is not the present of a worm or parasite that is the problem as all fish have such in their guts.

It is what makes the presence of that intestinal infection become a problem that needs addressing.
My opinion is that it is how the fish are kept.

The analogy is like some human problems where we naturally have certain bacteria in our gut, but their presence goes un-noticed until something goes wrong and those species then become a problem (eg bacterial, Clostridium, induced colitis after prolonged anti-fungal or anti-bacterial treatments). Although we may say the Clostridum is the cause, the fact is that it was the medication.

Often, the recommended 'treatments' (such as I would recommend octozin as a medicine) are really only to start addressing the secondary or potentiating problems of bloat.
It is a bit like a paracetamol tablet for a headache....it doesn't sort the problem, just some symptoms of a problem or secondary effects of an underlying problem.

When we look at any fish with 'bloat' we may or may not see a number of things depending upon the observation time within the course of the illness.

So, adding KenS's comments of stress to a list of how to avoid 'bloat', my key bullet points are (without me getting too technical):

1. Acclimatise fish carefully and correctly....if buying deep water fish, make sure that extra care is taken (but I guess few people get deep water frontosas anymore....a real pain at one time)

2. the typically high levels of salts (not sodium chloride) and other dissolved chemicals in rift valley tanks means that the kidney is very vulnerable to the increased potential of drastic changes (it is anyway, but rift valley cichlids just emphasise the point).

3. make sure that water is well buffered and balanced for the fish. The key element is the RedOx potential here....but you don't need a RedOx meter if good water is supplied, and the RedOx 'battery' is 'replenished' via proper water changes. (the redox balance buffering capacity will drop with time).

4. acids building up in the tank, through not doing regular water changes, will cause kidney damage.

5. Don't mess around willy-nilly with water chemistry......ie if a certain pH is required then remember that continued adding of this and that to get it 'right' will be adding to the conductivity, TDS, salinity, etc etc....until you may have the 'right' pH but the fish tank is almost like the dead sea. !!
Malawi and tanganyikan lakes are high in electrolytes.....but they are not the dead-sea.

6. Balance the water chemistry, and it is best to get it right at the start by using the minimal means to attain that balance. Calcium/Magnesium balances are important.

7. Don't add cooking salt (sodium chloride) as a means to increase TDS or conductivity.

8. Feed correctly for the species of fish. I still see some people say 'cichlids are meat-eaters' !!

9. Do not over medicate without real need. The kidney takes a blow.

10. Mulm, filth, decaying this and that, any detectable ammonia, unacceptable nitrites and nitrates, high biological oxygen demand, etc etc…signs of poor water….are going to do nothing to help the onset of bloat (and many other illnesses).

11. Basically, good water husbandry cannot be overstressed. Some fish can tolerate poor water management, but others cannot. It is the ones that cannot tolerate poor water management that are often called ‘difficult to keep’.

12. And, as KenS stressed, think stress. Carefully arrange the tank decor and social arrangements to minimise stress (and, as I often joke with people, if you have one Malawi tank then you need 2 malawi tanks….in times of bullying)

Observe the natural hierarchy of rift valley cichlids......you will see trends in behaviour that you can exploit to help minimise stress. eg a dominant specimen may take up residence near the bottom, the less dominant specimens may go to the top.....so have upper level housing for them else the less dominant may try to compete with the bully for a home low in the tank.

I think that a fuller thread looking at Bloat is required where different experiences can be thrown into a pot. It is still a widely cited as ‘uncertain aetiology’.

Newcomers and those with experience both have a lot to offer in a discussion on this.
Different people with experience have differing opinions….but that helps develop our knowledge of fish-keeping.

ian

he didn make it lads... died this morning ... what do you recommend i do now should i leave everything as is bare in mind the water levels are all as should be and i carry out regular changes, shud i get an additive or just leave it none of the other fish seem to have it there all flying ??? thanks to everyone for the replys aswel its the first time ive had it so better understanding of it now

cheers colly

colly130 wrote:

he didn make it lads... died this morning ... what do you recommend i do now should i leave everything as is bare in mind the water levels are all as should be and i carry out regular changes, shud i get an additive or just leave it none of the other fish seem to have it there all flying ??? thanks to everyone for the replys aswel its the first time ive had it so better understanding of it now

cheers colly

Soz to heat that Colly130.

Which species was it by the way?
what other species do you?

I'd say keep up the good water and food regimen....and take note of KenS's comments on dominant fish etc.

At this stage, it could be a one-off.
But keep an eye out for early signs of anything wrong eg behaviour changes, swaying, shimmering movements, the state of the faeces (a good indicator always).

A dose octozin (or something similar)....it is only a 3-day course... will not do any harm (but don't use it willy-nilly as can cause neurological problems in long-term use). But I've heard through the grapevine that octozin and other such proper medications are becoming hard to find as off-the-shelf products.

I would be very cautious about recommending anything stronger though unless there is a bit of experience around as that is messing with things too much.

ian