Discus pointing down

Hi all,

Well I had a bit of a disaster in early February with my Discus tank. I lost 2 of my 5 discus when there was a pH crash in the system. Essentially what I had was very soft water, and a HMA (Heavy Metal Axe) filtration into the tank. HMA's don't impact the pH of the water. So what I didn't realise before I went away for a week with work and was doing a nice big water change was that the pH from my Tap had dropped (down to the low 4 mark) when the Council were rationing the water.

In short I had a pH crash which I had never been through before. I lost 1 discus soon after I came back as I did another water change (again the pH out of the tap was really low) and then another. I hadn't been checking the pH of the water from my tap in ages (over a year) as I had a tried and tested routine. I didn't stop to consider that just because I was taking the same steps - an external factor, namely the pH of the water during the water rationing would impact the tank.

As I said, because the water was so soft I was getting this nasty pH cycle that saw the pH drop in the tank overnight. At times it was very low - down at around the pH of 3 mark. (I was using an electronic meter to measure the pH - which admittedly I hadn't calibrated in some time before this either).

Thanks to the guys in Fintastic Aquatics - especially Dimitri and Liam - I was advised to add some buffer to the filter and then do lots of gentle water changes (checking the pH of the water from the tap each time this time!!!) The whole saga lasted about 3 weeks in the end before I realised what the problem was an rectified it. As I said I lost 2 discus, but saved 3 nice discus who are today happily swimming about in my tank.

However - one of them is not the same since all of the above. He swims normally - nose out in front and straight across. But when he isn't "swimming" - in other words when he's just sitting there normally - he is pointing straight down at the bottom of the tank. He's fully coloured up and is eating healthily. I just seems he's lost his sense of balance or something. The other 2 discus are perfectly fine.

Has anyone ever seen this before and are there any suggestions on what the cause of this might be? I was thinking he probably suffered some form of shock during the pH saga and he may have been affected in some way from this. But I really don't know if this is treatable or not?

What do you think?

Also - now that everything is nice and stable again I've been keeping an eye out for 2 new discus to put into my tank. I'm going to have a look around, I saw 2 lovely Red Dragon Discus in Newlands over the weekend. But at €130 for the pair I thought that was a little steep. Anyone any ideas on where to buy some nice discus at a reasonable price?

Thanks all,

Rob

At the risk of looking like a total idiot, but has anyone ever used Organic Aqua on a Discus setup, sorry if this is a hijack.


Kev.

Hi again,

I've been reading up on the "pointing down" thing - and it's commonly associated with Swimbladder disease. Except he's perfectly coloured up, healthy, and eating away. Just pointing downwards.

Have any of you ever had to treat Swimbladder Disease? Does my Discus seem like he has it to you?

Rob

This made for very interesting reading. As my Discus has been Headstanding for several weeks now I fear the worst that this has become permanent. I'll try to treat, but for the rest of you in case you haven't seen this article.

www.discusnews.com/article/cat-02/swimblader.shtml

Rob

chief,
what are your water params now ?

Hi Damian,

Will get back to you on the current water params this evening when I get home from work.
But just to say again there are 2 very healthy Discus swimming away happily and healthily in the tank, it's only the 3rd Discus that is acting funny.

Did you think there was something I should be aware of or considering?

Thanks,

Rob

is his stomach bloated ?

I had a good look at him this morning before I came out - and he seems to be very healthy looking.
Except he's pointed at the bottom of the tank.

No stomach bloating that I can see.

Rob

I presume you mean pointing 90 degrees down rather than 45 degrees down.

45 degree headdown is quite normal for a Discus, but not 90 degree down.

As for pH.....buffer the water slowly. The biological system of nitrosofication (ammonia to nitrite) will make nitrous acid; the nitrification system will make nitric acid (nitrite to nitrates). If the water is not buffered then the pH will jet downwards.

Of course, there are many other reasons for pH swings.

I would be of the opinion that testing the buffer-capacity of water is important...but, alas, not as easy as simply testing the transient pH.

ian

It would help if you could post a photo of this discus you are concerned about. From what you said it doesn't sound like swimbladder disease if he is able to maintain this position without hassle. Is he permently angled even while trying to swim? Is he feeding normal? Is he staying alone? There is a plethora of things to examine before jumping to a conclusion. Personally myself if he had been fine till the shock , I would say he is resting and trying to recover, First off some TLC (stable conditions etc etc ) and see if he improves, medication can sometimes make things worse dont rush in if he is healthy otherwise.

Hi all,

Very sorry for the delay in replying to this - I was away with work and then, thanks to a volcano in Iceland - I didnt get home for a while.

So to answer your questions - He is pointed 90 degrees down, not 45. But when he swims he rights himself, i.e. points himself straight forward. However, he mostly just hovers now and effectively goes up and down only. He doesn't swim around much.

He does eat, and he does "hang around" with the 2 other Discus. I tried a dose (4 days) of Swim Bladder Treatment but it had no impact - he's still acting the same.

I'll try to take a snap of him to show him to you guys.

Cheers,

Rob

Hi guys,

Here's a snap. You'll see the other 2 Discus in the tank as well (the Blue Diamond is bottom right, camera shy) but it shows the situation.

I actually think problem is affecting him more because he's getting closer to the top of the tank. I actually think he's tiring from being pointed like this all the time. It's 2 months nearly now since problem started.

Rob

Sorry - had to resize the image.
[img size=150][/img]

Sorry to hear about your sick discus. I hope someone with experience in Discus can help you better than I but in the meantime take a look at this article it may help you with your diagnosis and treatment. I would always QT a sick fish and use some epsom salt as a matter of course. Do you have another tank you can leave him in for a wee while? Then again I hope someone with more experience replies back because I'm a newb. BTW Part II of the article deals with "Headstanders". Good luck!

www.discusnews.com/article/cat-02/swimblader.shtml

Thanks Bella,

I have a QT tank set up that I've been reluctant to move him to for a few reasons. The main one being the stress it might cause him. I don't know if that's a legit concern or not, but I've held off for now. I actually was getting the QT tank ready yesterday as I'm really considering moving him now.

I think he is suffering from some form of stress he suffered during the pH crash. I read somewhere that a sever pH change can cause a form of brain shock - meaning he's basically unable to tell the right way up.

I ran him through a course of Swim Bladder treatment for 4 days. I've also treated him with Melafix.
Plenty of water changes too.

At this point he's still eating but I'm noticing that as this is going on he's floating closer and closer to the top of the tank, and bending his tail to keep it down in the water. So he's becoming more and more bent to one side. I don't think this is something he will survive from for much longer. He's also tiring I think from having to constantly swim (wag his tail effectively) which, compared to the other discus who can sit there gently without having to swim much, must be exhausting him.

I think I'll put him in the QT tank for a few days. It's a smaller tank, 60 litres, so maybe the fact that it's not as deep as the main tank will help in terms of adjusting to the depth of the water?

All suggestions welcome, but I'm not sure this is easily treatable at this stage.

Thanks,

Rob

Hi Robert ,

Thanks for the photo, You were right about the swimbladder, something has affected the fishes nervous system which in turn had a knock on the fishes ability to maintain stability. However I would reckon you could be right about the pH crash but its always hard to be 100% sure. IMO there is an underlying problem contributing to the fish unable to maintain stability.
If I was to do anything it would be remove him from that tank as already mentioned and raise the temp slowly to 32 degrees with plenty of aeration monitor the fish over the next couple of days at this , then increase slightly more to 34 degrees if no better remember its important for lots of air. after a week take it to 35 degrees for a day or two if there is no change at all start slowly bringing the temp back down to 30 and treat with an all round antibiotic (Nifurpirinol) Its made by Aqua Furan if you can get it , Make sure the tank is very blacked out as Nifurpirinol is photo sensitive. I have only 1 x 1g sachet left (which will do up to 100ltr tank I always sligthly give more than is needed so if your quarantine tank is less than 100 ltr the better) for an emmergency that I would gladly give it to you I need to order more myself its always handy to have.

Well just to update you on whats happened. I put the Discus in a QT tank for the last week (60 litre). I had gotten the QT tank ready about a week before putting him it, it had the same pH etc as the Main tank. I also bought a little Eheim internal filter to get plenty of Airation into the tank for the course of what was to come.

The temp in the QT was 30 degrees.

I moved him in and have been treating him with Myxazin daily. I didn't manage to get Nifurpirinol so I don't know if Myxazin was really strong enough but thats what I got in the LFS.

I raised the Temp over the week up to 34 degrees, with water changes (20%) every second day.

I've not seen any real improvement in the Fish, in fact, if anything his condition is deteriorating. I don't think its anything to do with the treatment or being in the QT tank - its just to do with the fact that all the "pointing down" seems to be exhausting him. He's tending to curl his body to one side more than the other, when he floats towards the top of the tank. This is making his body bend too frequently in one direction which can't be good for his spine or anything.

He is still eating, but I'm feeding him less because of the treatment.

At this stage I'm quite convinced the problem is more of a Neurological problem, caused by the pH shock a few months ago than anything else. In hindsight I should have looked to treat this earlier, but now I don't think there's alot I am going to be able to do.

Any suggestions here?

Without being defeatist, I think he's got a few weeks left in him if this continues so I'm open to trying something more radical. I don't know if Nifurpirinol or another medication would make much of a difference to what I've done.

Can anyone advise? I've had this guy for about 3 years and it's just awful to see him like this.

Thanks all,

Rob

Thanks John,

As Bella linked, earlier, I've read this article once more:
www.discusnews.com/article/cat-02/swimblader.shtml

I've decided that I'm going to give him one last strong dose of Magnesium Sulphate mixed in with Beefheart. It's just a last shot at this really, but I suppose if there is anything "in there" that he needs to "get out" - including air/gas, then this should get it out.

So I'm basically giving him a strong laxative now to see the outcome.

Fingers crossed...

If that doesn't work I reckon I'll leave him in the QT and keep him seperate from the other fish, right?

Thanks again all,

Rob

Have to agree with John and yourself it sounds Neurological problem, but usually it is caused by something else , i.e Fish has underlying problem good conditions immune system works fine , conditions then worsen problem cant be dealt with by fish infection takes over , knock on effect in turn on Nervous system effects swim bladder, Myxazin will not treat this problem and antibiotics dont always work. If the stomach is bloated maybe your suggested course of action will work have you not noticed if there is waste in the quarantine tank? If there is I doubt its your problem. By treating the fish with too many medications you will defo weaken it more.

Good Luck I hope he gets on the mend.

Hi guys,

Just wanted to say thanks again for all the advice with this. Unfortunately the Discus died over the weekend, he was just too weak in the end and stopped eating.

I'm pretty certain it was originally caused by the pH shock when I had the pH crash. So if nothing else it served as a warning to me. I had a really soft water in January as I was hoping to get the Discus to breed. The soft water combined with the pH changing in the taps (and me not checking the pH !!!) triggered a whole lot of instability.

So golden rule: If you have a stable system for your Discus with the right parameters, and it works, then don't go messing with it!


Cheers,

Rob

Hard luck matey. Had a setup go on me too. Bad buzz altogether.
Keep crackin at it.


Mark

Sorry to hear that bad news Rob. Hard luck and you did everything possible to save it.

Sorry to hear your loss.
But I'm very interested in your synopsis. Just I have prepared some very extreme conditions for discus nothing that they would not encounter in the wild as that is impossible under aquarium conditions.
I would just like if you were able to tell me more of why you believe your theory on a pH crash was the cause of the death solely.
I would just like to say I can not agree with that because it sends out the signal that discus are weak sensitive fish the slightest thing and they die. Discus are as hardy a fish as many and they should not be feared or believed to be any harder to keep than many others if basic aquarium conditions are met. If the crash was so severe there would have been more casualties. There is alot of weak discus on the market, especially some of the ones been bred in parts of Asia that actually arrive here in bad health.(I believe it could go the same way the Angel fish went in the early 90's through too much in-breeding) So unfortuanatly its only when the hobbyist keeping them has a little problem it becomes apparent you have a weak fish. Quality of discus is important as many of the tank bred strains are very removed genetically from their wild cousins. There are some fabulous colour morphs (if you are into that thing) coming from the far east but IMO the quality of these strains in my experience is very poor.
I would not convince yourself too much you did anything wrong or you provided bad conditions to cause this. I reckon you just were unlucky to get a poor quality fish to begin with.

Zoom wrote:

Sorry to hear your loss.
But I'm very interested in your synopsis. Just I have prepared some very extreme conditions for discus nothing that they would not encounter in the wild as that is impossible under aquarium conditions.
I would just like if you were able to tell me more of why you believe your theory on a pH crash was the cause of the death solely.
I would just like to say I can not agree with that because it sends out the signal that discus are weak sensitive fish the slightest thing and they die. Discus are as hardy a fish as many and they should not be feared or believed to be any harder to keep than many others if basic aquarium conditions are met. If the crash was so severe there would have been more casualties. There is alot of weak discus on the market, especially some of the ones been bred in parts of Asia that actually arrive here in bad health.(I believe it could go the same way the Angel fish went in the early 90's through too much in-breeding) So unfortuanatly its only when the hobbyist keeping them has a little problem it becomes apparent you have a weak fish. Quality of discus is important as many of the tank bred strains are very removed genetically from their wild cousins. There are some fabulous colour morphs (if you are into that thing) coming from the far east but IMO the quality of these strains in my experience is very poor.
I would not convince yourself too much you did anything wrong or you provided bad conditions to cause this. I reckon you just were unlucky to get a poor quality fish to begin with.

Okay - in short:
I had the Discus for over 3 years prior to the pH crash. He was very good size, health and colour prior to the crash. After the pH crash he was pointing downward in the tank, until he died. Thats why I associated the pH crash with the eventual death. I think thats a reasonable theory.

As I have pointed out in my posts, I had 5 fish before the pH crash. 2 died almost immediately, the one who pointed down died several weeks after, and 2 survived and appear to be fine and healthy. I also lost some of the tank mates, namely rummy nose tetras. So yes there were more casualties, I think I did mention that.

Why 2 survived and 3 died (eventually) probably does come down to the internal ability of the individual fish to adapt to such a change or shock, but I'm not really qualified enough to know what specific aspect causes this.

With regard to sending "out the signal that discus are weak sensitive fish the slightest thing and they die" - I don't think that was the signal I sent out!

Rob

Hope this is clearer.