Fish cruelty

I've noticed a few posts refering, obliquely, to some less than reputable pet shops. This really annoys me (the pet shops, not the ppl complaining about them!). While I don't think you can compare, say, a neon tetra to the family dog I can't understand why some folks have such a blase attitude to fish. I know more than one person that claims to love looking at their aquarium but they have a sink or swim attitude to fish keeping; excuse the pun. It's a case of if the fish doesn't starve, get stressed or eaten, great; but if it does, sure we'll toss in something else and see what happens!
There is no real protection against the stupidity of some fish keepers. The shop is the last line of defence and as such should be the place where any animal has a hope of intervention. And yet...

I've been to a large xxxxxxx where not only did I have to tell the guy which was a female Krib, I also had to explain what a Krib was !

I ordered a male Betta from a southside pet shop and went to collect it only to find it had been put in a tank with a bunch of tiger barbs (feeding frenzy anyone!). What was worse was that I had only been keeping fish for about a month at that point and even I knew that was a mistake.

A family member visited a certain xxxxxxx you all know well and saw a large fish, she didn't know what it was, that had to rub itself off the glass just to turn around.

I guess my point is this; if someone is selling you a dog, they should at least know what a dog is, what it eats and how to care for it. You don't sell a Great Dane to someone who lives in a fifth floor apartment. So why sell an african cichlid in a goldfish bowl? Why sell a Piranha to someone who doesn't know how to keep a guppy?
In England, apparently, it is now illegal to give away goldfish in plastic bags to winners at fairs and carnivals. The logic is, you cannot sell an animal to someone if you have a reasonable suspicion that they don't have the facilities to contain and care for it. Why is there not a law like this in Ireland? And furthermore, why is it legal for any idiot to sell you fish with only a halfbaked idea of their needs?

This applies to everyone.
I had to edit this post because of its content.
It is unexceptable giving clues to so called bad petshops.
Straigh away I copped the two shops you were on about. Every member has been warned about this and I deleted a few posts tonight.

I am sorry for not responding to you by a personal message but I feel
this applies us all.
We have a great friendly forum here(the only proper irish one) and if members keep naming shops or keep dropping the most blatant clues they will be banned.
I would hate to do this but it will happen.
I am sure Daragh had a great evening staying in and writing the rules of the forum. He did not do it for the fun of it.

Keep your powder dry, as the saying goes.

Sorry about that. Won't happen again.

Hi,
I agree with Uther 100%. Down South there are some brutal shops as well. At times I feel like choking the person behind the counter. Clueless to say the least. At what they are getting paid per hour they probably don't give a monkey's anyway. Profits go to the owner of the place and not the poor sod behind the counter.
Sometimes I think it's in order to call a spade a spade. Enough of the dealers advertise their stuff for sale in this forum. Time to give them some feedback?

To be honest not that many LFS' advertise their wares on this site, certainly not as much as they would do in PFK or other similar UK sites.

I am getting a little concerned at the rising swell of opinion that 'all' LFS' are out to cheat people or maintain poor fish husbandry standards. The fact of the matter is that some are excellent, some are mediocre and unfortunately some are very poor.

In principle I agree with contacting Anthony's proposition of contacting the DSPCA. Targeting businesses is spurious and as it has been stated here by the mods before very, very dangerous from a litigious point of view.

I would argue that if you feel very strongly about a LFS and want to give feedback, let them know in person or via a letter. The anonymous nature of the Web allows people to express their opinion but often in a excessive way as people can hide behind their profiles. It is the web hoster and the forum that will get closed down to the detriment of the community they are trying to help. In fact even better vote with your feet, don't buy from them but there is no need to advertise your choice to anyone else. Let them make up their own minds.

I personally have been to every, and I mean every LFS in the greater Dublin area and also a few up and down country. I visited a PFK best in catagory winner shop in London recently among other LFS' in the metropolitan area. All I can say is that the variety of 'standards' we experience in Dublin is shared in the UK. I was surprised that in London where competition, target market and ostensibly facilities including stock (and proximity to European mainland) should be better than little old Dublin was in fact not. Again some places were better and some much worse.

I have my preferred LFS', other LFS' I will never again visit but that is my choice. I think voting with your feet as opposed to your mouth can often be the most effective policy.

This website is THE ONLY ONE OF ITS KIND in Ireland and as such is of direct relevance to us all. I would hope that individuals frustrations and even personal agenda's do not ultimately force greater posting restriction on the forum or worse, get it closed down.

hi,
I know nobody wants to get sued. So why not have a vote on the forum of which are the best shops around the place? I am aware that this won't be entirely fair but at least we would get some idea of what's around. No need for any personal comments Just rate a shop on a scale from 1 to 10 or something along those lines.
I'm planning a trip to Dublin after Christmas for a bit of a shop tour and don't want to be looking at places I'd rather not want to be. I'm probably not the only person from outside Dublin who's got the same poblem.

Holger

While I agree with the idea of voting with your feet, and God knows there are some places that will never have my shadow fall across their door again, I still think too many awful shops would still do great business on the back of ignorant fish keepers. What I was really thinking of was some kind of regulation, even self regulation. For years the computer gaming industry regulated itself by putting self imposed ratings on the games and issuing warnings about the game content. It wasn't legally binding, but it was an effort on the part of the companies. As I said before, the guy in the shop is the last line of defense. It just baffles me that if you walked into a shop and saw a rabbit cage with dead bunnies in it, you'd report the shop. I know fish die, sometimes whole tanks get wiped out even if experts are maintaining them... s**t happens. I just wonder is there not some way to offer some kind of similar protection to fish. Seems a crying shame that some fish are screwed, even before they leave the shop.

We had all this before about rating shops and it is a dangerous road to go down. Do not in any way start a post rating shops

I hope this is the last time we have this type of topic.

END OF STORY

I agree, it is a dangerous and ultimately unproductive way to go. I was purely considering this from a legal point of view. Not legally giving individual shops a hard time but from approaching it from a licensing angle.

Hi Uther,
I don't believe that you will get any support from the government to regulate the ornamental fishtrade in this country. And before anybody starts, I am not trying to slag any political party in particular. If we had an alternative government, I don't think it would matter to them either.
The problem isn't big enough and fish can't cry, whinge or have sad faces and furthermore it doesn't win you any votes if you did anything about it. There are just not enough of us that give a damn. Sad but fact.
If anybody knows any dealers that do any decent apistogramma or any other South American dwarf chilids let me know. PM or an email will do. Don't want to fuel the rating issue any further.
Holger

True enuff, but laws can be made that cover all pets.