Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)

Hi,

John Howell who has managed the forum for years is getting on and wishes to retire from the role of managing it.
Over the years, he has managed the forum through good days and bad days and he has always been fair.
He has managed to bring his passion for fish keeping to the forum and keep it going for so long.

I wish to thank John for his hard work in keeping the forum going.

With John wishing to "retire" from the role of managing the forum and the forum receiving very little traffic, I think we must agree that forum has come to a natural conclusion and it's time to put it to rest.

I am proposing that the forum be made read-only from March 2022 onwards and that no new users or content be created. The website is still registered for several more years, so the content will still be accessible but no new topics or replies will be allowed.

If there is interest from the ITFS or other fish keeping clubs, we may redirect traffic to them or to a Facebook group but will not actively manage it.

I'd like to thank everyone over the years who helped with forum, posted a reply, started a new topic, ask a question and helped a newbie in fish keeping. And thank you to the sponsors who helped us along the away. Hopefully it made the hobby stronger.

I'd especially like to thank John Howell and Valerie Rousseau for all of their contributions, without them the forum would have never been has successful.

Thank you
Darragh Sherwin

Size of fish discussion

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JohnH (John)
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19 Oct 2008 16:51 #1 by JohnH (John)

Size of fish discussion was created by JohnH (John)

I was recently posed this question and, since answering it involved much thought provocation and not a little conscience-tugging I thought it would be good to pass it on to Forum members in order for anyone interested to add their comments...
The question was asked of me by a UK friend who is a fish-shop proprietor.
Basically his question to me, and therefore indirectly to you, is (something along the lines of) \"Should there be a maximum fish size which would be allowed to be imported?\" Now by that I think he was actually speaking of 'potential' maximum rather than the importation of potentially huge fish merely being imported as post-fry...The Red Tailed Catfish springs readily to mind here but we could all think of other examples.

For what it's worth my immediate reply was that it was wrong to put legislation up which would take away a person's free choice of tank occupants but then I got to thinking that not everyone can offer adequate accommodation for these fish when fully grown and gradually my resolve started to weaken somewhat.
We all see advice given regarding keeping fish like Clown Loach and Bala Sharks...endearing when small but ultimately growing to a potential size which would really warrant a small indoor pond rather than a tank. These, too, would come under the 'banned' category!
Now, again very personally, I actually think that both these fish are fine to be kept as the growth rate isn't that rapid - so at least until until they start to outgrow your tank, at which they would need either rehoming or being brought back to LFS, both would be fine...but I digress - what size of fish should be considered for 'banning' here? - Potential rather than actual size, of course - I'll set the ball rolling by saying 12\" (which I think is 30cm, but probably isn't) but even then only in exceptional circumstances.

Over to you all...maximum sizes and reasons behind the thinking are requested here.

John

Location:
N. Tipp

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl - year after year.

ITFS member.

It's a long way to Tipperary.

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mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods)
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19 Oct 2008 22:22 #2 by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods)

Replied by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

i have to say while i can see merit in this! i would not be willing to have some one tell me what i can and can not have. the way to do this is by education and information at points of sale regarding the requirements of a species.

the December 2006 issue is a perfect example of what people who want to keep certain fish will do www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages...ssue.php?issue_id=76

i could see the need to purchase a licence to purchase certain fish this would be something involving an inspection to ensure that the minimum requirements of the species is meet and the aquarist has reached the level that will ensure the correct care and treatment of the species.

but considering they have not got round to banning fish bowels yet will they care enough to do anything

Mickey Wallace & Cath Woods

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sheag35 (Seamus Gillespie)
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20 Oct 2008 00:04 #3 by sheag35 (Seamus Gillespie)

Replied by sheag35 (Seamus Gillespie) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

I personally can see some merit in this. How many times have we seen Pacu's, Redtailed Cats, Bala's and Arowana being sold to people with 80 -120 litre tanks. This Limit has to be realistic though say 24\" max as a lot of people can house fish of this size. But the real restriction should be done in the lfs's. Only in one or two stores have i ever been asked \"what are you keeping in your tank already\" and \"what size is your tank\", also it is rare you hear people telling what potential size these fish will grow to. this should be standard practice but its not, needless to say those shops that have asked these questions are the ones i buy from.
If your Lfs asked these questions then this issue would never arise

Fishkeeping the Only way to get wet and wild

currently 25 tanks, and breeding is the aim of everything i keep
location:Limerick

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Valerie (Valerie)
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20 Oct 2008 10:38 - 20 Oct 2008 14:41 #4 by Valerie (Valerie)

Replied by Valerie (Valerie) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

I agree with you that tank busters shouldn't be readily available in the lfs for everyone to buy. If you were to buy/get a dog, a scrupulous seller/rescuer would enquire about the conditions in which the pet would live and possibly organise a home check. While, of course, home checks for fish wouldn't be practical, the lfs person should make sure that the fish would suit the environment it is going to live in (other tank residents, pH and tank size). There are very few of us that have very large tanks which could accomodate a fish that grows to be more than 12'. Maybe these should be available on order only ?

Valerie

Last edit: 20 Oct 2008 14:41 by Valerie (Valerie).

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serratus (Drew Latimer)
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20 Oct 2008 11:51 #5 by serratus (Drew Latimer)

Replied by serratus (Drew Latimer) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

From a retailers point of view i understand where you are coming from, however, it is a debate as to whether the customer asks the questions or the staff tell them its gonna get big!!! We had a large clown knifefish and i sold it at the wkd to a guy from Kilkenny, i asked the question \"what size is the tank? he replied \"10ftx3ftx3ft, he will be by himself\" i answered fine, big enough!!!! If only all customers were like this!!!
We also have a few customers who have tropical ponds....tiger shovelnoses, redtail cats, pacu etc in them.... One customer from France used to have a MASSIVE tank..it was on wheels!!!!

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mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods)
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20 Oct 2008 14:14 #6 by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods)

Replied by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

i have to say Valerie has brought up a very good option with special order only.

And i am sure Drew would agree!

As it has benefits for both parties
if LFS took time to create and laminate information on these species which would give water par possible tanks mates and the minimum size of tank in either metric or imperial measurements eg 4ft by 4ft 8 ft and this would be a eye opener for people i know when i am looking at fish my eyes are clouding my hearing:woohoo:

i have the advantage i have seen enough tails and mis sold but like all here i have learned

this would help people understand the requirements and highlight these fish are for the more advanced tank

there is also the benefit to LFS that they are not stocking long term residents which maybe the case or having fish returned that may fill tanks till a suitable home is found. tanks that could house new species to the market rather than draining resource.

Mickey

Mickey Wallace & Cath Woods

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derek (Derek Doyle)
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20 Oct 2008 18:18 #7 by derek (Derek Doyle)

Replied by derek (Derek Doyle) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

i tend to agree with valerie's comments on this subject. although in fairness most of the specialist shops do try to advise buyers as to potential future problems.
one of my pet hates is badly chosen and incompatible tankmates tearing lumps out of each other with no refuge or escape.

30 tanks specialise in african cichlids, angelfish and various catfish

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20 Oct 2008 20:33 #8 by Acara (Dave Walters)

Replied by Acara (Dave Walters) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

It would be a very difficult thing to 'police',ie a customer can go into the shop and ask for (a) large fish,the staff ask what it will be kept in,customer can say anything he wants,who's to know if he's being truthfull?Legislate?,hell,aint we got enough taxes.
Who decides what is 'suitable' for a specimen?You could keep a very healthy large specimen in,say a 6x2x2ft tank,but is it really a good thing to do so,would you keep a spaniel in a 6x8ft dog run and never let it out?Sure,it could get the best food,lots of pats and cuddles,but is it RIGHT?Would a formula be adopted for calculating recomended tank size for certain species,as a rough guess,I would recommend a minimum tank size of 10x the length of the fish by 5x for tank width,therefore,an oscar shouldnt be housed in a tank with a footprint of less than 10x5ft.Who could,or would run this?IMO fish can,and are kept in aquaria much too small for them,from betta in jars,right through to the 'tank busters'.I have seen a sponsor of this site selling white cloud mountain minnows,which prefer shoaling in fast flowing water,in glass vessels containing less than half a litre of water.As I said,they can be very healthy,but is it MORALLY correct?

Dave

always on the lookout for interesting corys.pm me if you know off any!

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duzzy1 (Martin Kennedy)
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20 Oct 2008 21:23 #9 by duzzy1 (Martin Kennedy)

Replied by duzzy1 (Martin Kennedy) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

hi guys .... just my 2 cents worth here , but i would think 99.99% of the responsability has to come down to the normal joe soap who owns the fish to

1. not buy something ( regardless how much you might want it ) if your set up is not adequate

and

2. if a specimen outgrows your set up ... then have the knowledge to take it out and rehome it somewhere it does .

i myself have had plenty of fish my tank before which due to size , i have had to part company with ... even though i did not want to
I only have a 120 litre tank so in the past such fish as oscars plecs and even an arowana which grew to over 12 inches in length , were all returned to my lfs for rehoming with someone with a more substantial aquarium

just my 2 cents

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21 Oct 2008 22:23 #10 by Daragh_Owens (Daragh Owens)

Replied by Daragh_Owens (Daragh Owens) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

I have mulled over this for 2 days before replying because I was very undecided, selfishly I would like to see whatever fish I want or may want to keep available, but on the other hand I hate to see fish that are going to grow into large and or aggressive adults sold to tank owners that that don’t have the space or experience to keep them. So after two days mulling I have not come up with any better solution than has already been suggested. Of course the buyer has a responsibility but unfortunately they don’t always exercise it and that’s were the seller comes in, they should within reason ask about the tank size and other companions and offer advice accordingly, but at the end of the day it will be the buyers decision.

12 inches is quite small and would exclude hundreds of regularly imported fish, many of which may never reach their maximum potential size in captivity anyway. I know the idea it to stop the sale of large monsters that come in as cute looking little babies, particularly cats like the red tail. When selling fish like that and the ultimate size is not evident to a fish keeper there is a greater obligation on the shop to ensure the buyer knows what they are getting.

Daragh

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mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods)
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21 Oct 2008 23:35 #11 by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods)

Replied by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

i have to agree with Daragh
it does boil down to information at point of sale and education of people

while i am first to admit there is no talking to some people the majority are willing to listen and learn other wise sites like this would not be here.

Mickey

Mickey Wallace & Cath Woods

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22 Oct 2008 20:28 #12 by Acara (Dave Walters)

Replied by Acara (Dave Walters) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

I'm afraid its something that we are going to continue to see happening.I've seen posts on most,if not all,forums I've been on,of people posting a pic or name of a fish and saying\"I bought 1 of these today,does anyone know what it is and can you tell me anything about it?\".It makes my blood boil.In this day and age of the internet,there is no excuse for not doing at least a bit of research.This research would reveal to people the potential size of a species.
Not all shop staff have good knowledge of what they're selling,some I have seen recently had NO knowledge of what they were selling.We're pretty well blessed around Dublin when it comes to that,luckily.

Dave

always on the lookout for interesting corys.pm me if you know off any!

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mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods)
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31 Oct 2008 08:48 #13 by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods)

Replied by mickeywallace (Michael Wallace Cath Woods) on topic Re:Size of fish discussion

The Politics of Aquariculture

[color=]while this is not quite the same subject it is worth a read about some of the dangerous to the environment that our choice can have. It is also a warning of what governments will do [/color]

aquariculture.blogspot.com/2008/10/polit...f-aquariculture.html

the last thing we want or deserve is a "clean list"

Mickey Wallace & Cath Woods

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Retirement and forum shutdown (17 Jan 2022)

Size of fish discussion